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The Band => Band Discussion => Topic started by: robert on March 20, 2008, 09:24:12 pm

Title: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: robert on March 20, 2008, 09:24:12 pm
I want to know.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Lysix on March 20, 2008, 09:25:41 pm
nope. i just never saw the fascination about it.
superfast reply gogo!
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Crazywater on March 20, 2008, 09:26:03 pm
Um... what about asking refic about d/l stats?
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 20, 2008, 09:31:14 pm
I care.

It's a step closer to removing unnecessary licensing costs. (see MP3).

What's with the sudden question? Something's wrong, or what?
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: yas‮ on March 20, 2008, 09:33:23 pm
I don't.
My music folder is named "MP3", so I want to keep all my music in that format.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Einkoro on March 20, 2008, 09:34:35 pm
FLAC for lossless and Ogg Vorbis for lossy are my preferred formats.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Chronologix on March 20, 2008, 09:35:35 pm
My SonicStage music transfer thing for my Mini-disc doesn't support ogg so I can't get any of the JnG stuff onto it...and that makes me a saaaaaad panda :(
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: megashroom° on March 20, 2008, 09:37:57 pm
Ogg pwns
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 20, 2008, 10:09:17 pm
FLAC ftw, but OGG over mp3 any day.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 20, 2008, 10:18:55 pm
Please vote in the poll too, it looks kinda weird when there's more no then yes in the poll but more yes than no in the actual thread. :P
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Laser.T on March 20, 2008, 10:35:44 pm
I don't.
My music folder is named "MP3", so I want to keep all my music in that format.

I like having all my music as MP3s if I can, too. I even took Shop Music.ogg and converted it to MP3 in Audacity. Now I can enjoyed it on my MP3 player (though I've never checked if it can take oggs tbh)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: kellerkind on March 20, 2008, 10:38:32 pm
What's with the sudden question? Something's wrong, or what?
Maybe they're considering removing the OGG versions of the webography, which occupy a good chunk of their serverspace, while only a minority actually downloads them...

@topic: A rather tough choice, but I had to vote for "I don't care". I have no doubt that OGG is the better format, but my ears already have a hard time telling the difference between a high-bitrate MP3 and CD-Quality, and MP3 has the undeniable advantage that about each and every soft- and hardware supports it nowadays. So you could say I do care a bit about OGG, but not enough :-\
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: zynaps on March 20, 2008, 10:41:08 pm
Personally, on my audio gear, LAME encoded MP3 @ 320Kbps sounds a lot better than any OGG I have ever heard. Much closer to the original (aka the flac version or original CD).

There's something just not right with the OGG sound, imho MP3 is better at high bit rates.

Quick Google search: http://www.digit-life.com/articles/oggvslame/
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Kernel on March 20, 2008, 10:43:06 pm
Well I'm not sure what to vote. I do care about OGG, cause it's open so that's cool... but it's actually not very useful for me, since my portable MP3 player and my car stereo can only play MP3 and WMA.
So while I think OGG is cool, I don't use it at all.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Lexx on March 20, 2008, 10:44:41 pm
My MP3 player doesn't do ogg, sooo.. not me. :P
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Irrationalist on March 20, 2008, 11:11:02 pm
I could care less. MP3 is in general the all around format with only .wmv and the i-tunes formats coming up behind it. Thus having in my music in that format means that most devices and people can use it.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 20, 2008, 11:15:33 pm
Personally, on my audio gear, LAME encoded MP3 @ 320Kbps sounds a lot better than any OGG I have ever heard. Much closer to the original (aka the flac version or original CD).

There's something just not right with the OGG sound, imho MP3 is better at high bit rates.

Quick Google search: http://www.digit-life.com/articles/oggvslame/


He mentions that the versions in that article are from 2001. It's pretty old by now. ;)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Cerapter on March 20, 2008, 11:29:48 pm
I care. But in the marching undead kind of way.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: dezo on March 21, 2008, 01:48:17 am
http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/index.html (http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/index.html)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Schattenjaeger on March 21, 2008, 02:44:34 am
I'd care if my sound card's audio player, and my portable music player, supported ogg. Since they don't... *shrugs*
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bavi_H on March 21, 2008, 06:06:26 am
I agree with Kernel, I like that OGG exists. But if a track is offered in both MP3 and OGG, I only download the MP3.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: SomethingApt on March 21, 2008, 09:31:58 am
I couldn't care less. MP3 is in general the all around format with only .wmv and the i-tunes formats coming up behind it. Thus having in my music in that format means that most devices and people can use it.

sentence fixed. think about what words mean you silly american :P

Other than that, pretty much agree with Loki. I voted no, i keep most of my music collection in mp3, generally because i know that EVERY application and every mp3 player will support it, and i definitely don't want to go converting lossy formats when i find a stupid program that won't let me use oggs.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: mumppis on March 21, 2008, 10:07:31 am
OGG is marginal format because it aint supported by all the mp3 players etc so it's kinda useless mp3 is efficient pretty much if its high quality ones. flac files would be the best but then again the size is a killer for that format because the amount of bandwith and hd space it takes.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bates on March 21, 2008, 10:34:54 am
I appreciate the effort building open source formats from scratch, but on the other hand MP3 is simply a de-facto industry standard. Just like Powerpoint, Word and Excel instead of Open Office formats.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: robert on March 21, 2008, 12:45:04 pm
... So,

assuming that those who really _don't_ care wouldn't bother answering this poll or even be attracted to read it based on the subject line, with the exception of course who actually punched in a "not me" vote, we've got at the moment of writing a number of 14 out of [n] fans who care about OGG.

It's a grim day for the OGG format. :)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 21, 2008, 12:51:32 pm
If you take away our precious OGG versions of the webography, I demand that FLAC versions replace them! ;D
/me ducks to avoid any thrown objects

(yeah, yeah... I know why this isn't feasible... but a man can dream, hey?)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: cherko on March 21, 2008, 01:08:57 pm
Not yet! I... care! And don't tell me it doesn't make a difference.

And I share WereVolvo's dream aswell...
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: SilverDogg on March 21, 2008, 01:10:07 pm
ogg over mp3 any day. currently working on getting rid all of my mp3s, and replacing them with better files.

if you dont want ogg taking up space, why not upload it somewhere else?

and... i also share werevolvos dream.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: mumppis on March 21, 2008, 01:23:40 pm
If you take away our precious OGG versions of the webography, I demand that FLAC versions replace them! ;D
/me ducks to avoid any thrown objects

(yeah, yeah... I know why this isn't feasible... but a man can dream, hey?)

i think its possible if you provide the hd space and bandwith and pay them
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 21, 2008, 01:49:35 pm
... So,

assuming that those who really _don't_ care wouldn't bother answering this poll or even be attracted to read it based on the subject line, with the exception of course who actually punched in a "not me" vote, we've got at the moment of writing a number of 14 out of [n] fans who care about OGG.

It's a grim day for the OGG format. :)

The proper formula is

n = t-(i+o)

t = number of registered fans on the forums
i = inactive members
o = offline members at the moment

;)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Jack Lupino on March 21, 2008, 01:56:22 pm
Thanks for some math in my hungover morning, bocom.

On the subject, however.. Nah. I could care less, if i want high quality sound ill just take wav..
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: robert on March 21, 2008, 02:03:31 pm
Oh, actually, I was consideringen the staggering possibility that there are more Machinae Supremacy fans than there are people registered on this forum.

n = earth fanbase
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: megashroom° on March 21, 2008, 02:09:25 pm
Oh, actually, I was consideringen the staggering possibility that there are more Machinae Supremacy fans than there are people registered on this forum.

n = earth fanbase

I belive that is very true.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 21, 2008, 02:17:08 pm
Oh, actually, I was consideringen the staggering possibility that there are more Machinae Supremacy fans than there are people registered on this forum.

n = earth fanbase

Well, of course, but it's kinda hard to vote in a poll that is on a forum where you have to register to vote. And what if those people aren't even aware of this forum? That makes it a bit difficult to vote, now, doesn't it. :)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: robert on March 21, 2008, 03:20:17 pm
I base this on a theory I have... This theory says that people who feel very strongly about things like open source and ogg tend to be more internet-active, get involved in forums, communities and such. I may be wrong, but my theory states that most people who come to our page and go "hey, looki there's music on that there websoyte", mostly go "ogg, wtf iz dat, so's yo mama, bitch" etc...

Again, I could be wrong. I've asked to get some statistics on it, and we'll see. But I was just realizing that maybe we're providing ogg files for a very select few, who's voices may be loud of course since most of our direct feedback comes through this forum, but maybe there aren't a whole lot more people beyond them who actually care.

I share the sentiment about an open format and all that, but I never download or listen to oggs when it comes down to it. My phone doesn't take oggs, and if I have to choose between a format that is widely accepted by my electronics, or a format that is more politically correct, I tend to, sad to say, pick the one that works.

As for quality, I don't really think one sounds better than the other, albeit they do sound _different_ from one another.

So anyhew... That's where I'm coming from, and why this question was asked.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 21, 2008, 03:37:05 pm
Solution: Get different electronics ;D
/me hugs his FLAC and OGG-capable portable media player

But yeah, as you say it's kinda pointless to let your bandwidth be raped for the benefit of a select few people. Leave that to dedicated fans that are more than willing to provide hosting space for high-quality versions of their favourite band's webography (*cough* hint hint). So if you're looking for an excuse to get rid of the OGG's, you've probably found it ;) though you certainly don't need me to tell you that.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 21, 2008, 04:13:20 pm
Well, if you already thought so, then why ask us for some kind of approval?

If you, when it boils down to it, then do whatever you feel like. I mean, the OGGs are hosted on other places too, and using your stuff without paying a license to Faunhoffer or whatever the fuck they're called is a very good thing for a developer like me, 'cuz there's no chance in hell that I will pay them license money, if I had the chance to. Because even if I would have your permission to use a webography song in a commercial project, (that's a pretty big if, I know, but I use it as a point) then I'd have to pay a license for using MP3 files. And I don't want to pay them that license money, because, let's be honest, if I can use a, in my opinion, better format without a license and a native release in that format, then I'd obviously use it.

My point is, whilst the mass consumption might not give a shit, we developers greatly appreciate this option.

But as I stated, it's entirely your choice. Don't get me wrong, I liked how you asked us anyway, another thing that makes me respect you even more. :)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: robert on March 21, 2008, 04:52:26 pm
Oh, I care a great deal what you guys think. That is why I ask. But I thought I should share the reason I asked, as well.

What happens depends on how people reacts. How do you think we started providing oggs in the first place? Someone suggested it and we thought it was a good idea. But now, years later, it still seems like OGG isn't really picking up speed.

FLAC seems like a more promising format, if are to invest time and resources in more than mp3. But I haven't decided yet, I need input on the matter.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Sirix on March 21, 2008, 04:57:36 pm
I've recently become a fan of FLAC for lossless, but as far as lossy goes I can't hear a difference between mp3 and OGG at ALL.

and most audio players aren't compatible with OGG... so yeah, I definitely don't care.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 21, 2008, 05:12:39 pm
Oh, I care a great deal what you guys think. That is why I ask. But I thought I should share the reason I asked, as well.

What happens depends on how people reacts. How do you think we started providing oggs in the first place? Someone suggested it and we thought it was a good idea. But now, years later, it still seems like OGG isn't really picking up speed.

FLAC seems like a more promising format, if are to invest time and resources in more than mp3. But I haven't decided yet, I need input on the matter.

Of course you should name the reasons, we know you love us, we love you too. <3

Dropping Ogg for FLAC would still be great, because FLAC is also open. :)

Dropping MP3 for Ogg would be good in theory. But! Since MP3 is the de facto format nowadays, that's not gonna happen, right? :D

I could go with MP3-only, but as I've said, I don't want to pay any royalties to Fraunhofer, so I can't use ANY MP3 file in a commercial product. Which sucks, if you were to drop any other format beside MP3. :(

Again, it all boils down to whether you have the time and resources to keep supporting more than one format.

And also, since I wasn't around from the beginning (which is a shame on my side. :(), I didn't know why you started with Oggs. When I started listening to you, then the choice was there.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WNivek on March 21, 2008, 08:58:13 pm
I prefer Ogg Vorbis when available, and usually rip my CDs to Ogg, but I'll use Mp3 when I have to. (Damn Sony for not including Ogg capability in the PSP's music player...)

When disk space is tight, it's amazing how far you can compress an Ogg and still keep it sounding good - the compression artifacts are much less audible than Mp3's.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Elrond on March 21, 2008, 10:49:18 pm
Screw ogg, I like mp2! Haha, I remember in 1997 it was all about mp2s. Seriously though, I like ogg and wish more music players supported it. I remember iriver was one of the first to do that, but then they stupidly stopped making hard drive size mp3 players.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: evilcandybag on March 21, 2008, 10:59:38 pm
I don't really care, because most of the stuff I use support both formats, and I can't hear any difference between them. I just tend to DL whatever format the stuff I want is available in.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: yas‮ on March 21, 2008, 11:07:45 pm
The candy man has a point. Even if you download something as .fck, you can still convert it.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 21, 2008, 11:20:59 pm
The candy man has a point. Even if you download something as .fck, you can still convert it.

Well, converting MP3->Ogg or any other format makes the files lossier. that's not very good.  ;)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Lysix on March 21, 2008, 11:49:36 pm
Oh, actually, I was consideringen the staggering possibility that there are more Machinae Supremacy fans than there are people registered on this forum.

you mean there are more of our kind..out there?
the light! it burns!

i think you should just drop the .ogg format support entirely. but refics download stats may give you reasons not to!
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 22, 2008, 12:31:16 am
Oh, I care a great deal what you guys think. That is why I ask. But I thought I should share the reason I asked, as well.

What happens depends on how people reacts. How do you think we started providing oggs in the first place? Someone suggested it and we thought it was a good idea. But now, years later, it still seems like OGG isn't really picking up speed.

FLAC seems like a more promising format, if are to invest time and resources in more than mp3. But I haven't decided yet, I need input on the matter.

if you started providing the webography in FLAC, I'd fall down on my knees and worship you (well, more than I already do, at least... if that's even possible)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Irrationalist on March 22, 2008, 01:07:46 am
Its always just more valuable to go with the default. It can be alot or work maintaining an mp3 collection and finding indie or rare stuff in that format let alone in ogg flac or any other odd lil format. The benefits of a lil better compression or lil bette sound quality is not enough TO ME to justify using a non-standard format (any format that isnt one of the top three)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: eloj on March 22, 2008, 03:00:47 am
As for quality, I don't really think one sounds better than the other, albeit they do sound _different_ from one another.

So, when's the last time you listened to a 64kbit mp3 vs a 64kbit vorbis?

Vorbis for teh wins. I encode everything in vorbis, and I pick my hardware based on that.

Vorbis is just better technically, and you don't feel all dirty for supporting the software patent monsters that are Fraunhofer and Thomson.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: L'homme magique on March 22, 2008, 06:55:00 am
I care about ogg. I think you should keep the oggs on the page.

I would prefer FLAC. I think you should offer FLACs on the page. FLACs are unfeasible for (f/ht)tp download, however.

Solution: torrents.

Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Crazywater on March 22, 2008, 02:14:13 pm
I care about ogg. I think you should keep the oggs on the page.

I would prefer FLAC. I think you should offer FLACs on the page. FLACs are unfeasible for (f/ht)tp download, however.

Solution: torrents.


That is a great idea. :)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 22, 2008, 02:26:23 pm
I care about ogg. I think you should keep the oggs on the page.

I would prefer FLAC. I think you should offer FLACs on the page. FLACs are unfeasible for (f/ht)tp download, however.

Solution: torrents.


That is a great idea. :)

I agree. :)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Deep on March 22, 2008, 07:22:14 pm
I care about ogg. I think you should keep the oggs on the page.

I would prefer FLAC. I think you should offer FLACs on the page. FLACs are unfeasible for (f/ht)tp download, however.

Solution: torrents.


That is a great idea. :)

I agree. :)

Agree.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: yas‮ on March 22, 2008, 07:52:35 pm
Remember that not everyone can use p2p. It makes a lot of UDP/TCP traffic, so some admins (like me) block it to prevent router hangups.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 22, 2008, 08:01:19 pm
Remember that not everyone can use p2p. It makes a lot of UDP/TCP traffic, so some admins (like me) block it to prevent router hangups.

I fail to see how that matters.

If people want mp3s, and gives a rat's ass about something other than it, then let them have their MP3s.

If people want something other than mp3, like, oh I don't know, FLACs in a torrent, then why not should they have to only get mp3s?

We don't want to remove the mp3s or make them torrent only. We only want a chance to get something better than mp3. And if it's to big for conventional methods, like hosting them locally, then P2P is probably the best choice.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: yas‮ on March 22, 2008, 08:13:11 pm
If people want something other than mp3, like, oh I don't know, FLACs in a torrent, then why not should they have to only get mp3s?

Because they can't download it using torrent. That's kinda unfair to non-p2p people, but I guess hosting sites like rapidshare or whatever could be put in use for those files too.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 22, 2008, 08:30:40 pm
If people want something other than mp3, like, oh I don't know, FLACs in a torrent, then why not should they have to only get mp3s?

Because they can't download it using torrent. That's kinda unfair to non-p2p people, but I guess hosting sites like rapidshare or whatever could be put in use for those files too.

You know how big a simple FLAC file can become... don't you? Rapidshare a FLAC file, and you'll spend alot of unneeded time. :/

And also, abandoning every other format except MP3 is unfair to the people who wants the other formats, don't you think?
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Torp v2.0 on March 22, 2008, 09:20:49 pm
My opinion: I care more for FLAC than I do for Ogg.

I don't have many oggs, and I'll probably not get the rest either. I do like the idea of a free standard, though.

So, when's the last time you listened to a 64kbit mp3 vs a 64kbit vorbis?

A more important question would be "when was the last time you listened to anything in 64kbit"?
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Einkoro on March 22, 2008, 09:46:13 pm
So, when's the last time you listened to a 64kbit mp3 vs a 64kbit vorbis?

A more important question would be "when was the last time you listened to anything in 64kbit"?

The EVE Online soundtrack extracted from the game is 54kbps Ogg Vorbis.
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Lysix on March 22, 2008, 11:12:12 pm
Remember that not everyone can use p2p. It makes a lot of UDP/TCP traffic, so some admins (like me) block it to prevent router hangups.

thats because you're scrooge!
not everyone can play xbox 360 games, should we stop producing them because its unfair? :P
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: yas‮ on March 23, 2008, 12:27:08 am
Remember that not everyone can use p2p. It makes a lot of UDP/TCP traffic, so some admins (like me) block it to prevent router hangups.

thats because you're scrooge!
not everyone can play xbox 360 games, should we stop producing them because its unfair? :P

Ok, do it, I'LL SUFFER FOR THE SINS OF THIS WORLD  :'(
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Bocom on March 23, 2008, 12:46:22 am
Remember that not everyone can use p2p. It makes a lot of UDP/TCP traffic, so some admins (like me) block it to prevent router hangups.

thats because you're scrooge!
not everyone can play xbox 360 games, should we stop producing them because its unfair? :P

Ok, do it, I'LL SUFFER FOR THE SINS OF THIS WORLD  :'(

It's just a suggestion, mate.

But hey, at least you'll cover our asses. ;)
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 23, 2008, 01:16:03 am
Ze topic, get back onto it

NOW!
/me charges his cattle prod


Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Blackiris on March 23, 2008, 01:13:59 pm
Painful to say, but I do prefer FLAC for lossless sound quality and MP3 for any other use... :<
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: Caranfin on March 24, 2008, 01:33:29 pm
if you started providing the webography in FLAC, I'd fall down on my knees and worship you (well, more than I already do, at least... if that's even possible)
Go check the new main site and join me in the worshiping, then.  ;D
Title: Re: Who the f--k cares about OGG?
Post by: WereVolvo on March 24, 2008, 01:52:48 pm
Yay!

But yeah, since that's done, I think this discussion has pretty much become moot. I shall go ahead and lock it for now.

(locking a thread made by Rob? Am I MAD? Well, yes, but that's beside the point. He can always unlock it later and smack me in the head if he still has a use for it ;))