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General => General => Topic started by: evilcandybag on July 23, 2011, 12:46:00 pm

Title: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: evilcandybag on July 23, 2011, 12:46:00 pm
Yesterday,  a bomb detonated at a Norwegian government building in central Oslo. Seven people were killed and currently over 90 people are hospitalized.

In addition, a person connected to the bombings travelled to Utøya, an island owned by the Norwegian labour party which was used for a summer camp for teenagers. Dressed up as a police officer to lure the children to him, the perpetrator proceeded to execute people. The death toll is 84 people, and counting.

My condolences go out to my Norwegian neighbours.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Wheim on July 23, 2011, 01:21:15 pm
As its summer holidays now, I currently stay on the countryside. But normally I live just a short 2 minute walk from where the bomb went off. Its quite hard to take in what has happened here, its just so unreal... I mean, the centre of Oslo looks like a war zone
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 23, 2011, 01:27:11 pm
Oslo #1:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=705

and Oslo #2:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=709
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: ~futilite~ on July 23, 2011, 01:33:39 pm
I'm really interested in the background, as yesterday a news agency (or only a journalist?; at least not the official Norwegian agency) said "yeah we think it was an Islamist attack" and I thought 'does really not sound like it, more like something politically motivated'.
Really shocking that the gunman could kill 84 people, and most of them so young :(

EDIT:
Oslo #1:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=705

and Oslo #2:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=709
Exactly my thoughts, especially when Muslim attacks would be more against people and not against governmental buildings or governmental youth camps.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Cerapter on July 23, 2011, 01:53:43 pm
They say he was a nazi an anti-islamist. He's being interrogated right now.

I'm okay, I've been to both of the crime scenes before, but right now I'm on the other side of the country. This is all just insane.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Hadou on July 23, 2011, 02:11:52 pm
Oslo #1:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=705

and Oslo #2:
http://www.verbali.se/?p=709

Yeah, I hate that we British followed George Bush like lapdogs. Stupid Tony Blair...
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Gravehill on July 23, 2011, 02:52:53 pm
Such a horrible acts of violence and hate... I feel so sorry for the victims and their close ones :/
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: WereVolvo on July 23, 2011, 03:25:09 pm
My mind is still boggling. 91 dead confirmed so far, it's just fucked up.

Also, the perpetrator is confirmed to be a known right-wing extremist.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 23, 2011, 05:22:42 pm
I was in shock once I heard this. This man has now caused, how much deaths, about 100+? And even more people are in the hospital if I understand correctly. What fucked up people we have in the world.

The man got 3 weapon licenses...
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Crimzen on July 23, 2011, 06:06:25 pm
Wow... My condolences for all the families and people in the area of these attacks. This was extremely horrible :(
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Jack Lupino on July 23, 2011, 06:34:14 pm
That's insane.. Killing others to imprint your ideals on the world has been done for as long as humanity exists
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 23, 2011, 06:44:14 pm
Are you being serious right now? Making a joke? That's just fucked up man, I don't know if you meant it as a joke but please don't do that. It's just not funny. If you don't got anything to say then don't troll this. Just like some other topics. Sometimes you can just go too far.

Again I don't know what your point is with this post but sorry if I understand it wrongly.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 23, 2011, 06:57:22 pm
Are you being serious right now? Making a joke? That's just fucked up man, I don't know if you meant it as a joke but please don't do that. It's just not funny. If you don't got anything to say then don't troll this. Just like some other topics. Sometimes you can just go too far.

Again I don't know what your point is with this post but sorry if I understand it wrongly.

This time, I don't really get what you mean?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 23, 2011, 07:00:32 pm
Well, I thought Jack tried to make a joke about this so I tried to tell him how wrong that is in a vague but angry way.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Aeon on July 23, 2011, 07:01:11 pm
Does not compute.

Btw. Radicz0r seems to be right. You know, thanks to the language barrier, it's often been easy for us to work out our differences by killing each other a little instead of resolving the issues through speech. Not that any of this bullspit should be happening right now, with English growing more and more popular and people being able to communicate with one another better and better over the internet.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 23, 2011, 07:01:37 pm
I didn't read it as a joke, I read it as him being serious. 'Cause he's right, sadly.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 23, 2011, 07:12:52 pm
Maybe I didn't understand his point. Did he try to make a joke or did he just point something obvious out that we've all been missing?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 23, 2011, 07:47:53 pm
The way I read it, he states that what happens was horrible, and that sadly things like this have gone on forever. I could be wrong, but... y'know.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 23, 2011, 07:57:19 pm
Yeah I understand. Let's just leave this be.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 23, 2011, 08:01:04 pm
For those who can read Swedish:

http://www.verbali.se/?p=714
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Hadou on July 23, 2011, 08:20:43 pm
For those who can read Swedish:

http://www.verbali.se/?p=714

I can't read Swedish, but Google Translate allowed me to get the gist of it. Good article, focusing on the sensationalism in today's society. I totally agree.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Jack Lupino on July 23, 2011, 10:25:28 pm
Didn't have much time, but like Gaij said. It's crazy.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on July 24, 2011, 11:35:10 am
And now, thank's to fantastic norwegian law, the guy's gonna get a maximum of 21 yers in jail, am I right ~_~ ?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 24, 2011, 11:54:07 am
Aye, that seems about right. And as well it should be. Bending the current laws and creating new ones to limit peoples rights (even the criminals) is just amazingly wrong and stupid. ;P
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: yas‮ on July 24, 2011, 11:56:29 am
It seems that the shooter was a World of Warcraft fan. Again, it's because of those violent games that people die!
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: evilcandybag on July 24, 2011, 12:42:29 pm
Actually, according to a CNN article I read, Norwegian law has a paragraph which has never been used yet: crimes against humanity and genocide are punishable with 30 years of prison, and if a prisoner is deemed dangerous to society at the time of release, a court can prolong a sentence as many times as needed.

Given the nature of the crime (slaughtering 90+ people with a clearly political motive) it may well fall under that paragraph.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 24, 2011, 02:02:36 pm
Actually, according to a CNN article I read, Norwegian law has a paragraph which has never been used yet: crimes against humanity and genocide are punishable with 30 years of prison, and if a prisoner is deemed dangerous to society at the time of release, a court can prolong a sentence as many times as needed.

Given the nature of the crime (slaughtering 90+ people with a clearly political motive) it may well fall under that paragraph.

Doubtful. Very doubtful.

Crimes against humanity are defined as "particularly odious offenses in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority."

Genocide defines as "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." And while this might in theory fit the events, I wholeheartedly think they won't even try for it.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Immanio_2 on July 24, 2011, 04:58:32 pm
The second part of what he wrote is the most pertinent: Norway technically has a maximum of 21 years in prison, but there's a special sort of conviction called "forvaring". In essence this entails that the sentence can be extended by 5 years at a time, if the court finds that there is a danger to society. There is no limit to how many times it can be extended, so if he's still deemed dangerous every 5 years after the first 21, it can last for life. This sort of sentence requires a crime against basic rights, but nothing on the scale of crimes against humanity: Rape, robbery, arson and murder all qualify. (Note that in most cases the sentence is fairly short, the important point is that however long it is, once it's over it can be extended based on a fresh consideration of the repeat danger.)

Personally I suspect the prosecution will try for this sort of sentence and the defence will try for a regular prison sentence.

Me, I hope that he'll be put away for a long time, and that over the years we ignore and forget him and his rhetoric, so that we only remember the heinous act he committed.

I'd also love to hear his own fellows, the right-wing ideologists and authors, say to him that he's a cocksucking, child-murdering worthless piece of shit. Someone should put the challenge to them.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Crimzen on July 24, 2011, 05:32:01 pm
Electric Chair or Noose, that's what I feel is appropriate for this man. That's just me, why the fuck keep him in prison. Sure someone could mess with him in prison make his life miserable and possibly kill him. I wouldn't want to wait for that. For what he's done he should die.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on July 24, 2011, 05:57:08 pm
Sure someone could mess with him in prison make his life miserable and possibly kill him.

I am not a specialist, however I've heard that norwegian prisons are far too nice of a place for something like that to ever happen.

Also, the reason why I'm against capital punishment are exactly people like him. In case of some crimes, finishing one's life would be too good for them. I believe some people should seriously suffer for what they have done, but in today's world of political correctness something like that is never going to happen ;=]
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Hadou on July 24, 2011, 06:13:11 pm
Sure someone could mess with him in prison make his life miserable and possibly kill him.

I am not a specialist, however I've heard that norwegian prisons are far too nice of a place for something like that to ever happen.

Also, the reason why I'm against capital punishment are exactly people like him. In case of some crimes, finishing one's life would be too good for them. I believe some people should seriously suffer for what they have done, but in today's world of political correctness something like that is never going to happen ;=]

I say they get tortured by the modern day equivalent of Hitler's SS. Some horrible, horrible people need to feel like shit for a long time before they get the release of dying.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: megashroom° on July 24, 2011, 06:33:14 pm
Don't fight hate with hate. :(
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Hadou on July 24, 2011, 06:50:02 pm
Don't fight hate with hate. :(

Are you suggesting we "special hug" them until they die?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Crimzen on July 24, 2011, 07:05:09 pm
Yeah depending on what you did here in the states, good luck surviving in a prison after doing something like that.

I don't like the fact prisoners just get to sit in a cell, get hot food, and tv to watch (they do here at least). My uncle works at a state prison. Prison should be a place that NOBODY wants to go to. Some people actually prefer it here than living on the streets. Not to say it is the best place to live, but my tax money is paying for that shit. I'd rather them be put down. Especially for a crime like that. I don't want to pay for their cell.

If prison was seriously a place of torture and it was absolutely a horrible place to even think about going to, then guess what. I bet most of the crime would go down. The psychos will still do it, but the lesser ones will definitely think twice before doing something that could land them in a place like that.

That's my two cents anyway, not trying to step on any toes, just giving my opinion
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Hadou on July 24, 2011, 07:35:32 pm
Yeah depending on what you did here in the states, good luck surviving in a prison after doing something like that.

I don't like the fact prisoners just get to sit in a cell, get hot food, and tv to watch (they do here at least). My uncle works at a state prison. Prison should be a place that NOBODY wants to go to. Some people actually prefer it here than living on the streets. Not to say it is the best place to live, but my tax money is paying for that shit. I'd rather them be put down. Especially for a crime like that. I don't want to pay for their cell.

If prison was seriously a place of torture and it was absolutely a horrible place to even think about going to, then guess what. I bet most of the crime would go down. The psychos will still do it, but the lesser ones will definitely think twice before doing something that could land them in a place like that.

That's my two cents anyway, not trying to step on any toes, just giving my opinion

That's pretty much the same story here in the UK. There have been many reports of homeless people committing crimes just to get served food in a cell. It is bad enough they can't get food on their own, but to have it as a reward for breaking a law is just wrong.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: megashroom° on July 24, 2011, 08:09:37 pm
People become criminals because of their social conditions, not because it's comfortable to be imprisoned. Nor should anyone be left to sleep on the streets. It's just the product of a faulty society.

Norway has a very low crime rate and that something like this could ever happen is just terribly unfortunate (and unlikely). The killer's alleged motivation was highly based on hate and fear of multiculturalism. The only way to prevent this from happening again is to continue to develop societies even further with more respect, solidarity and secularization.
Hating is just counter productive.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: gaijin on July 24, 2011, 09:09:35 pm
People become criminals because of their social conditions, not because it's comfortable to be imprisoned. Nor should anyone be left to sleep on the streets. It's just the product of a faulty society.

Norway has a very low crime rate and that something like this could ever happen is just terribly unfortunate (and unlikely). The killer's alleged motivation was highly based on hate and fear of multiculturalism. The only way to prevent this from happening again is to continue to develop societies even further with more respect, solidarity and secularization.
Hating is just counter productive.

Kjuu-Eff-teeee.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on July 24, 2011, 11:08:33 pm
It's not hate, it's justice :(
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: evilcandybag on July 24, 2011, 11:16:37 pm
Spread the love is what it's about.
First comes solidarity and respect. Then comes education and science. Secularisation will inevitably follow as a positive side effect.

This interview with a former KKK leader is rather enlightening, regarding the worth of fighting hate with love: http://youtu.be/TBwIRq_hmjg
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Einkoro on July 25, 2011, 03:54:06 am
Yeah depending on what you did here in the states, good luck surviving in a prison after doing something like that.

I don't like the fact prisoners just get to sit in a cell, get hot food, and tv to watch (they do here at least). My uncle works at a state prison. Prison should be a place that NOBODY wants to go to. Some people actually prefer it here than living on the streets. Not to say it is the best place to live, but my tax money is paying for that shit. I'd rather them be put down. Especially for a crime like that. I don't want to pay for their cell.

If prison was seriously a place of torture and it was absolutely a horrible place to even think about going to, then guess what. I bet most of the crime would go down. The psychos will still do it, but the lesser ones will definitely think twice before doing something that could land them in a place like that. I also survived the showers without being raped which is an extra special accomplishment.

That's my two cents anyway, not trying to step on any toes, just giving my opinion

That's pretty much the same story here in the UK. There have been many reports of homeless people committing crimes just to get served food in a cell. It is bad enough they can't get food on their own, but to have it as a reward for breaking a law is just wrong.

I spent half a week in maximum security prison in Canada which is considered very nice and cozy but it was hell. I can't understand how anyone would like to be in such a shit hole with no freedom at all. The worst part was how it was adding insult to injury as I was just realsed from hospital after seizures and a coma and I never did anything to justify being locked away. On the other hand I beat death this time around which feels like an accomplishment. I also survived the showers without being raped which is even more accomplishment.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: cloudstrifex on July 25, 2011, 12:21:07 pm
Yeah depending on what you did here in the states, good luck surviving in a prison after doing something like that.

I don't like the fact prisoners just get to sit in a cell, get hot food, and tv to watch (they do here at least). My uncle works at a state prison. Prison should be a place that NOBODY wants to go to. Some people actually prefer it here than living on the streets. Not to say it is the best place to live, but my tax money is paying for that shit. I'd rather them be put down. Especially for a crime like that. I don't want to pay for their cell.

If prison was seriously a place of torture and it was absolutely a horrible place to even think about going to, then guess what. I bet most of the crime would go down. The psychos will still do it, but the lesser ones will definitely think twice before doing something that could land them in a place like that. I also survived the showers without being raped which is an extra special accomplishment.

That's my two cents anyway, not trying to step on any toes, just giving my opinion

That's pretty much the same story here in the UK. There have been many reports of homeless people committing crimes just to get served food in a cell. It is bad enough they can't get food on their own, but to have it as a reward for breaking a law is just wrong.

I spent half a week in maximum security prison in Canada which is considered very nice and cozy but it was hell. I can't understand how anyone would like to be in such a shit hole with no freedom at all. The worst part was how it was adding insult to injury as I was just realsed from hospital after seizures and a coma and I never did anything to justify being locked away. On the other hand I beat death this time around which feels like an accomplishment. I also survived the showers without being raped which is even more accomplishment.

Can't tell if serious.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Einkoro on July 25, 2011, 12:25:52 pm
Very serious. Cost me thousands for the lawyers in court.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Immanio_2 on July 25, 2011, 08:51:33 pm
There's a public gathering in Oslo right now, to show support for the victims and the ones left behind. Media is reporting about 150 000 people (in a city with about 500 000 inhabitants, in a country with about 4.5 million). The final speaker was the mayor, and I think the final words of his speech put it really well: "We will punish the murderer together. The punishment shall be a society with more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy."  As a Norwegian myself, I don't want him killed, I don't want him tortured, or abused. I believe that this is the time to show that we really, truly hold to being a state of justice. There is no better way to punish him than to prove him wrong, by strengthening our ideals rather than weakening them. We need to show him that he isn't the hero he believes himself to be, or some martyr for a revolutionary cause, but merely a pitiable, deluded creature. This isn't a time to hate. He isn't worthy of hate, only disgust and pity.

Edit: As an aside, the number of dead has thankfully been adjusted down some today. Now that they've been able to search the island and bring the dead ashore, they're saying 68 dead there + 8 in Oslo, although some are still missing and many are critically injured, so the number could still rise.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Church on July 25, 2011, 09:26:00 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/evCCZ.jpg)

I am in awe of this person.

My deepest condolences go out to the victims and those affected by their loss, personally or otherwise.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: machinaeFREAK on July 26, 2011, 12:10:12 am
They should just release him in the middle of the angry mob at the court when he's done there. After that the police can pick up his mangled remains from the ground.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: cloudstrifex on July 26, 2011, 12:59:46 am
Very serious. Cost me thousands for the lawyers in court.

Can I ask why? o_O

Also, wishing for the death and torture of the individual who did this is not only barbaric and outdated, but will not help anything towards preventing something like this from happening again. People who do things like this need serious therapy, and are very obviously not right in the head for whatever reason. That doesn't give anyone the right to purge them from a defective society because they were not able to cope with reality. As evilcandybag said, we should all just love each other. That's not to excuse what he did, and this is incredibly tragic, but wishing for the death of another is never the right way. We as a society need to figure out how something like this could have happened and work together to make sure it doesn't happen again.

That being said, once emotions have settled in a few weeks people should not dwell on the past and move on with life. The lives lost will not be forgotten and the memories of them will live on through other people. This experience should be used to become stronger as a people and learn how to be a better society, at least that is my opinion. My condolences to anybody who lost a loved one, and of course to all the lives  that were taken.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Einkoro on July 26, 2011, 05:07:49 am
Can I ask why? o_O

You shouldn't cheat on people with depression and borderline personality disorder because things explode way out of proportion extremely easily and quickly. Mix that with an over zealous legal system where they pursue charges no one wants to press and some more for things so way out of context it doesn't even make sense. Long story short they charged me with assault and multiple threats of death or bodily harm and eventually dropped them all after wasting my money and tax payer money. Not to mention all the lost wages and relocation costs.


Back to the actual topic ... I don't think terrorist attacks against viking countries is a smart idea. Berserkers are scary fuckers when enraged.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Cestus on July 26, 2011, 11:52:05 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKH5S93hT0&feature=related
since 0:40 true story
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Cerapter on July 26, 2011, 02:29:50 pm
I'm impressed and in awe of the attitude of so many of my fellow Norwegians. We are all furious, but we will not led that cloud our judgment. We will deny his belief in violence and aggression. That infernal, absurd belief is what drove him to do this. Now, I do not think this mass murderer would have become a better being if Norwegian society had been more lovey-dovey; at present I can only believe that the drive to do this came from within him. But if we react to this nightmare by becoming better people and a better society, that is the worst punishment I can think of for his condition.

If instead we let him reach our dark sides, and smear his blood on our hands, that blood will taint and mar us, and he will have gained a small victory. With our own blood boiling in our veins, we might not have realized this until later. No, I'm glad the cold air is chilling our heads.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on December 13, 2011, 12:42:57 am
Ok, time for some necromancy!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/insane-breivik-should-not-be-sent-to-prison-say-prosecutors-6269761.html

More and more of those news are appearing.

Of course nothing is decided yet and I'm not telling it will turn out this way, but let us discuss.

So, this is the world we live in. The world of political correctness and 'human rights' where a simple statement that the individual is 'mentally insane' might be enough to deny him the punishment and instead try to somehow help him.

Well, isn't that sweet? I remember that once in our little lovely Poland some guy set his neighbours' apartment on fire. Not by accident, on purpose. A whole family, together with children, died in flames. Now, the guy only said that "the voices told him to do this". And what happened then? Psychiatrists' opinion and he was sent to be treated and released after about half a year (with specialists' opinion: CURED!)... to live in the same place, next to all the terrified neighbours. But who cares about neighbours, who cares about those dead people relatives.

We live in the world where constant brainwashing makes people actually believe that absurds like that are ok. That a crazy murderer shouldn't be punished or even completely removed from society like a non-crazy murderer would be.
Wait a minute... who would you rather live next to? A man who kills in self-defense (in many countries you still will easily be sentenced for many, many years for that) or while acting under strong emotion (say, catching their spouse in-act while cheating)... or, on the other hand, a man who murdered 70 children, believed till the very end that what he had done was right... but hey, it was then! He was insane and now he's cured! Our doctors say so.

What I believe is simple - insane people are even MORE dangerous. Why are we letting them go so easily then instead of protecting the society EVEN MORE from them? Or is it that 'human rights' apply only to criminals nowadays? At least that's the impression one might sometimes get...
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: LymphoCite_T on December 13, 2011, 04:18:05 pm
What I believe is simple - insane people are even MORE dangerous. Why are we letting them go so easily then instead of protecting the society EVEN MORE from them? Or is it that 'human rights' apply only to criminals nowadays? At least that's the impression one might sometimes get...
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous? is there even any statistic informing what percent of mentally ill people did try to do some murder or whatever? is it bigger than percent of mentally healthy ppl who do so?

I can agree up to a point, in case we reverse your thinking - we can say people who kill other people are somehow insane - antisocial. and thus: countries could decide that all of murderers should get prison sentece/death penalty. in this case there are just no palliations. fair enough.

But isolation of all mentally ill people is kinda weird. for example: you get depression. now they isolate you just because you can do harm to someone (e.g. you). you can't work, try to maintain family now. or anorexia. or catatonia. or any other mental illness.
Why do you think it is ok to punish ill people for things which are uninfluenced by them?
People with Alzheimer's disease are not aware of things they do, too.
Should we isolate them?

And... look, what an irony - soldiers who kill on purpose, but having bigger ideas behind them are considered heroes. Mentally ill people (remember only a tiny group of them has ever tried to kill anybody - not all of them are dangerous at all, even when having 'heavier' disorders) are considered the waste of society.

And notice that to improve safety of society, some ill ppl spend their whole lives in hospitals already...

I think the best idea is to punish these ill people who killed someone (if one has to) is like for unintentional causing of death. and one should cure them too, before letting them to be with society again.

---
The truth is that it's not so easy to distinguish whether one is really ill or just pretending.
But don't tell me we should do things like the ones you said. It would be collective responsibility.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: yas‮ on December 13, 2011, 04:26:04 pm
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous?

Umm... if a guy kills someone or burns your house, and then he is declared insane or - if you want it subtle - mentally unstable, do you think he's automatically redeemed of his evil deeds and less dangerous?

That's basically what he meant.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: LymphoCite_T on December 13, 2011, 04:42:28 pm
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous?

Umm... if a guy kills someone or burns your house, and then he is declared insane or - if you want it subtle - mentally unstable, do you think he's automatically redeemed of his evil deeds and less dangerous?

That's basically what he meant.

then why don't formulate it as equally dangerous?
i still can't see why insane people should be called more dangerous...
for simple thinking:
!(x < y) doesn't mean (x > y)
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: yas‮ on December 13, 2011, 04:47:15 pm
They are more dangerous simply because they are even less predictable. It's like you stand in front of a guy and his mentally unstable brother. You call both sons of bitches. Who is most likely going to kill you for that?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: LymphoCite_T on December 13, 2011, 05:31:24 pm
They are more dangerous simply because they are even less predictable. It's like you stand in front of a guy and his mentally unstable brother. You call both sons of bitches. Who is most likely going to kill you for that?
Stereotype.
It depends. if the 'brother' is catatonic, it's thousand times more likely the 'guy' kills you.
It also depends on temperament, and some other things.
The truth is that sensitive people get mentally ill easier than others, chances are that he goes crazy enough to kill you, but in some diseases, like in most types of schizophrenia, which is mentioned in Ziza's post, people are less irritable, and more depressed.
There are many factors that decide if one (mentally ill or not) kills you.
I agree that these people are less predictable. But it doesn't still mean they're more likely to do bad.
You can tell children with ADHD are more dangerous. But in the most of illnesses you can't know whether one is more or less dangerous. I know guy that is schizo- and works as ambulance driver, and therefore saves people's lives. I can predict what you say now. something like that there are exceptions, but most of mentally ill people are still dangerous. What ''most"? As i asked - are there any statistical researches that prove more of mentally ill people are dangerous in any way?
If you give me a scientific or just a statistical proof that the 'brother' is more likely to kill, I agree with you they're more dangerous.

//terrorists deal with killing ppl, mentally ppl don't have to.
//and: have you ever met a classical example of a simple guy?
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on December 14, 2011, 01:23:36 am
Ok, Lympho, you got me wrong. I didn't mean that mentally ill people are more dangerous and should ALL be isolated.

I of course meant that mentally ill CRIMINALS are more dangerous and therefore should be treated more firmly instead of more gently.

I also did not mean all mental illnesses. I meant mental illnesses that were said to be the reason for them commiting crime - that's most usually why they don't give them as much of a punishment as other people would get and that's what I believe should lead us to reasoning that person should be treated as more dangerous instead.

So, I hope I've made my point now.

Quote
I think the best idea is to punish these ill people who killed someone (if one has to) is like for unintentional causing of death. and one should cure them too, before letting them to be with society again.

That's what I'm referring to and that's what I can't agree with. Even though I am definitely aware that there are many cases of people who actually GOT cured, I believe it to be really risky in case of many insane people charged with heavy crimes, not to even mention the fact that punishing them for unintentional causing of death is exactly what I was criticizing. I know I am going to extremes now, but honestly I don't think you believe people like Breivik should be punished as if the crime was 'unintentional'.

Another one of 'extreme' examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

tl;dr - guy killed and ate a woman, his father managed to get him to a hospital for mentally ill instead of prison. Guy got out after 15 months and is now rich and famous thanks to the public interest in his crime.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: LymphoCite_T on December 14, 2011, 12:12:47 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

"Upon arrival in Japan, he was immediately taken to Matsuzawa hospital, where examining psychologists all found him to be sane but "evil"."

probably very big amount of criminals pretended to be insane just to avoid prison, and i think so did Breivik, fake paranoid schizophrenia is the easiest to persuade.
"Among other things, he alluded to himself as a future regent of Norway pending a takeover by a Templar-like organization." [wikipedia]
Cool story, Bre.

On the other side, his behavior is really irrational if he was Christian at all.
He didn't achieve anything but killing some kids.
"In it he lays out his worldview, which includes support for varying degrees of cultural conservatism, ultranationalism, right-wing populism, Islamophobia, Zionism, anti-feminism, and white nationalism."
He just shamed all right-wing related values with their fanatic versions... Yeah, the best way to make the psychologists think one is from Christian, right wing family, and got insane.

Of course i might be wrong. It is possible he was really ill.

In this case he should be not released unless he got cured and aware of what he did, and if he didn't pretend, he can't be cured for a very long time. So thinking as formalist: when he gets aware of murdering ppl and of it's wrong, he should go to jail for unintentional killing (but better idea is to let him spend this time in care). Of course if he ever gets cured, 'punished' and released, which is hardly possible, he should have compulsory psychiatric supervising till the very end of life.

Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Aeon on December 14, 2011, 09:20:26 pm
See this is why I'm glad there are people who do the thinking for me and that I don't have to voice my opinion on any of that.

I have no idea what it was, or is, on Breivik's mind, that made him to kill. I don't care about his claims. I am insane enough to know that lunatics' words matter little (yes, that includes my voice, so feel free to ignore that post, I wouldn't mind). And that we are able to freely twist and redefine, shift our perception of reality. So that one can believe, when commiting heinous crimes, that one is in fact doing good things, or at least not doing evil things. Or make it so that the meaning of insanity changes to suit our whim. Or fiddle with the definition of instability so that it can be attributed to other people, not to them.

We may be unpredictable. Lunatics and normal people alike. We will never get rid of evil, or fear, or death. Or of concern about things we believe are not right. Frankly, I care little about where Breivik ends up so long as he does not live in my neighborhood. Though despite my indifference, I'd rather he lived, and be allowed to walk among us.

Ziza, you know how it is. Some people (I'm not sure which kinds of people in particular, I know almost for sure psychopaths, and maybe some other sensitive people who are able to empathize with the others) just do not learn from being punished. So they need help instead. Or to be rewarded for doing good deeds. Just like children. We are not that different from our younger selves, besides a little bit of life experience and physical development. Do not be scared or frustrated. It may be that you learn better from being punished and from failing. That's pretty much what's considered normal, and stable. There is some kind of universal balance in the world, though. Lunatics suffer throughout their entire lives for no reason other than their brains being wired differently and working differently, and I'm not sure if any kind of psychological or psychiatric help is able to permamently remedy that, let alone any amounts of fame or money. Usually shunned and stigmatized by the society, these lepers among the healthy are doomed to their own minds.

So, in other words, he's a loon so let him go. Maybe. Or put him in prison. Whichever works better. I don't know, I'm no expert. No kind of punishment or reparations will fill a gaping hole left after the loss of a living being, though.

I don't even know what I'm writing anymore.
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Ziza on December 15, 2011, 10:16:45 pm
Ziza, you know how it is. Some people (I'm not sure which kinds of people in particular, I know almost for sure psychopaths, and maybe some other sensitive people who are able to empathize with the others) just do not learn from being punished.

Proper punishment isn't what I care about as much as protecting the society from discussed individuals effectively...
Title: Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
Post by: Caranfin on December 16, 2011, 02:34:35 am
Why, in your opinion, is treatment not an effective way to protect the society from a severely mentally unbalanced individual?