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Gaming & Media => Gaming & Media => Topic started by: Sirix on November 23, 2008, 06:48:26 pm

Title: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 23, 2008, 06:48:26 pm
This is what video games have come to.

Rare are the breed of gamer who thrive on platformers, metroidvanias and RPGs.

The amount of popularity a thread about an FPS or MMO gets on this forum makes that much clear.  Whereas other genres get 1-2 pages max and then die out.

comments?

Do you think gaming is going in the right direction, or does there need to be change?

Will we be drowned in FPS and the newest 07-08-09 Sports games?
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 23, 2008, 10:15:27 pm
Absolutely agreed. It's the surge of casual gamers that caused short, pointless games that earn a quick buck.
I miss epics like final fantasy or crash bandicoot, but things have just become alot more mainstream.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: gaijin on November 23, 2008, 10:46:53 pm
Keep up the games for casual gamers, that's fine. But for cryin' out loud bring back the epics as mems said, and the point-and-click adventures! AND NO, NOT IN 3D YE ARSEWIPES!

DOTT! COMI! Sam 'n Max! The Dig! BRING IT BACK!
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Gravehill on November 23, 2008, 11:15:12 pm
I've been playing Rayman games with kid lately. Lots. Jumping around, collecting stuff, marvelling the characters, following the storyline, enjoying the graphics and great background music. It's so much fun to do together... Playing it together, laughing for the funny parts and being excited whether that next leap is going to land where it ought to land. Perfect stuff to do with kid. But on the other hand, I love to play games like that alone as well.

I think too that there's too much FPS, MMO and sports games done with low creativity and ambition. Reason for this? Reason for this is not casual gamers but because games are done with graphics end first. And this is not done to lure in casual gamers but to keep on the cycle of updating hardware and game sequels.

You can "justify" new release just because it has better graphics. And because you must have always better and better graphics you must get more calculating power so it means that one must update gaming system as well in regular basis, just because "THERE MUST BE MORE POWER". This leads to increase in sales of new machines and new sequels with updated graphics and one or two extra tricks per game. It suits the big companies as they can sell both machines and "new" games with few to nill creativity. The large majority of games with good graphics justify the armanent race of gaming systems and then the few more creative games "must" be published to that new system level "just because it's cool now". Many better games would work with worse graphics as well and people would gladly play them in their lowend machines but that does not fit big companies.

I've been demanding less graphics and more content and creativity in games for years.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 23, 2008, 11:53:14 pm
Sense making

Exactly.

And one problem with driving graphics so hard is that it's VERY expensive.  A lot of gaming companies have been laying off employees because their games take WAY too much money to make and not enough revenue.  A new study showed that only 4% of games make a profit.  The rest fall short.

This is a recent development.

One great example of a game done right without "uncanny valley" graphics is Megaman 9.  Production value? Almost none.   Someone with any half-decent PC from the past 5 years could have made a game like that (see Cave Story).  The game cost very little to make and so profit happened very shortly after release.

The Wii might be drowning in shovel-ware games right now, but every now and then absolute GEMS surface amongst the rubble.  Lost Winds, Megaman 9, Strongbad games (woo point and clicks!), Toki Tori and etc.

Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Chronologix on November 24, 2008, 02:42:48 am
I agree, the new games are fun though, you have to admit, but carry no depth and just try and wow you for the little amount of time they last before the same company releases another to keep you going.

But I always look back at the more in-depth and large-scale games and remember how much fun I had playing them...my friend owned a playstation and I had an N64 and even though I was already engulfed in Mario 64 and Perfect Dark, we would always swap and I would have a blast playing Crash Bandicoot and even Spyro the muthafawkin Dragon, collecting everything, completing all the side story pieces.

Bring them back pl0x!
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Einkoro on November 24, 2008, 03:06:33 am
Needs moar adventure and space sims.

Only two more days until A Vampyre Story ships and I can enjoy happy fun adventure aka FUCKING PUZZLES I HATE YOU time.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Jack Lupino on November 24, 2008, 04:36:20 am
Well. Currently i'm waiting for the next blizzard releases, Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2. Wich both are oldies so hopefully it will give us all a nostalgic feeling. Or a bloody frenzy.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: PrescriptiveBarony on November 24, 2008, 05:05:28 am
with any luck, the power of procedural generation will grow in the next few years, and high-quality graphics and atmosphere can be achieved without the blockbuster-level budgets that are constricting so many smaller developers.

At the same time, the growth of arcade-style games is comforting, with wiiware/xbox live arcade/whatever the playstation stuff is called allowing more niche games to have a shot at success.

as for the original question, do i think games are going in the right direction? well, they're going in the direction dictated by the market. if enough people think it's wrong, it'll change. but for now, EA is doing just fine. i usually have the problem of too many good games to play as opposed to too few, so i guess that's the best i could hope for? i also think we need space sims to come back though, and another proper simcity (or simtower) would be quite welcome. another dungeon keeper/evil genius, too.... but i'm enjoying europa universalis and fallout 3 just fine. i am a little bit anxious for the next generation to commence, though. consoles have the unpleasant side effect of constraining most games in 2006-era technology even while PCs get two and three times better.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 24, 2008, 03:01:51 pm
i am a little bit anxious for the next generation to commence, though. consoles have the unpleasant side effect of constraining most games in 2006-era technology even while PCs get two and three times better.

PCs only take current gen hardware and improve it midly, they dont completely redefine the graphics.
As for the next generation, you're in for a wait as it's not till around 2011 that the first console is released. I'm in no rush for it to start as i just blew £300 on an xbox 360 :P
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 24, 2008, 03:34:15 pm
i am a little bit anxious for the next generation to commence, though. consoles have the unpleasant side effect of constraining most games in 2006-era technology even while PCs get two and three times better.

PCs only take current gen hardware and improve it midly, they dont completely redefine the graphics.
As for the next generation, you're in for a wait as it's not till around 2011 that the first console is released. I'm in no rush for it to start as i just blew £300 on an xbox 360 :P

Really, if they announce a next gen anytime soon there is going to be blood.

It's bad enough that Nintendo and Sony won't stop releasing new versions of their handhelds every year.

Console gaming is by no mean behind PC gaming.
PCs can upgrade on the fly and so it's not necessary for next gen shit, but the controls are limited to working great in FPS, MMOs and RTS.  Consoles are where original game play is going to happen.

If they haul their heads out of consumers asses for a few seconds and see the shining start of ingenuity, at least.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Spunky on November 24, 2008, 04:58:11 pm
Not really got an opinion to add ontop of whats alreayd been said. I have the arguement with my friends as it is. Games seems to be churned out by date rather than by "finished", if you knwo what i mean. instead of making it a great game, they make it a good game, and sell it faster.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 24, 2008, 06:28:34 pm
Not really got an opinion to add ontop of whats alreayd been said. I have the arguement with my friends as it is. Games seems to be churned out by date rather than by "finished", if you knwo what i mean. instead of making it a great game, they make it a good game, and sell it faster.

I know!

So many times I've played a game and thought "If they just play-tested this game ONCE they would have caught so much and been able to improve it substantially."

You can really tell when a game is play-tested a lot.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: harvey danger on November 24, 2008, 08:25:53 pm
Not really got an opinion to add ontop of whats alreayd been said. I have the arguement with my friends as it is. Games seems to be churned out by date rather than by "finished", if you knwo what i mean. instead of making it a great game, they make it a good game, and sell it faster.

I know!

So many times I've played a game and thought "If they just play-tested this game ONCE they would have caught so much and been able to improve it substantially."

You can really tell when a game is play-tested a lot.

i.e. not Fable 2.

I love the game IMMENSELY. But one look at the forums and you'll see that the consumers have basically been transformed into the QA team for the game.

If they had only spent more time, instead of rushing it to release so they wouldn't have to share the market with Fallout 3, the game would have been godly.As it is, it's fun but infuriating. Game-breaking bugs have ruined it a bit for me. I can't even continue the main storyline, atm.

Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 24, 2008, 08:35:06 pm
BUT HARVEY, IT HAS TO BE OUT BEFORE CHRISTMAS WHETHER IT IS READY OR NOT
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: SomethingApt on November 25, 2008, 03:42:56 am
I agree with you, there's a lot of shit on the market. But i think you're rather hastily jumping to the conclusion that "they don't make em like they used to". It's all too easy to look at the past with rose tinted glasses, but as far as i remember the market has always been flooded with shitty rush jobs made purely to cash in.

Looking at the top sales chart at the moment, there's quite a healthy mix...

1. Fable II - Xbox 360 – 790K
2. Wii Fit w/ balance board - Wii – 487K
3. Fallout 3 - Xbox 360 – 375K
4. Mario Kart w/ wheel - Wii – 290K
5. Wii Play w/ remote - Wii – 282K
6. Saints Row 2 - Xbox 360 – 270K
7. SOCOM: U.S. Navy Seals Confrontation - PS3 – 231K
8. LittleBigPlanet - PS3 – 215K
9. NBA 2K9 - Xbox 360 – 202K
10. Dead Space - Xbox 360 – 193K

Fable 2? Wii Fit? Mario Kart? LittleBigPlanet? That doesn't look like a stale market to me.

Sirix, i looked into your stat that 4% of games make a profit. Technically true, but a bit misleading. 4% of games that start production make a profit, but of games that actually make it to market, 20% turn profit. Still a small number, i guess.

EDIT: Out of interest i just looked over some software sales charts dating up to 10 years ago, and there's a fairly similar spread of sequels and yearly sports updates to what there is today.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 25, 2008, 03:22:53 pm
I agree with you, there's a lot of shit on the market. But i think you're rather hastily jumping to the conclusion that "they don't make em like they used to". It's all too easy to look at the past with rose tinted glasses, but as far as i remember the market has always been flooded with shitty rush jobs made purely to cash in.

Looking at the top sales chart at the moment, there's quite a healthy mix...

1. Fable II - Xbox 360 – 790K
2. Wii Fit w/ balance board - Wii – 487K
3. Fallout 3 - Xbox 360 – 375K
4. Mario Kart w/ wheel - Wii – 290K
5. Wii Play w/ remote - Wii – 282K
6. Saints Row 2 - Xbox 360 – 270K
7. SOCOM: U.S. Navy Seals Confrontation - PS3 – 231K
8. LittleBigPlanet - PS3 – 215K
9. NBA 2K9 - Xbox 360 – 202K
10. Dead Space - Xbox 360 – 193K

Fable 2? Wii Fit? Mario Kart? LittleBigPlanet? That doesn't look like a stale market to me.

Sirix, i looked into your stat that 4% of games make a profit. Technically true, but a bit misleading. 4% of games that start production make a profit, but of games that actually make it to market, 20% turn profit. Still a small number, i guess.

EDIT: Out of interest i just looked over some software sales charts dating up to 10 years ago, and there's a fairly similar spread of sequels and yearly sports updates to what there is today.

Yeah, I was quoting a Kotaku article on that 4% stat and I JUST read the correction that put it to 20%.

And this "FPS and Sports" curve I'm talking about HAS been happening for almost 10 years.

the era of 3D started it.  Oh Goldeneye.

Thanks for the research SG!

That puts a bit of hope into the situation, but a bulk of those sales for Wii games comes straight out of the casual market.

As far as the "gamers" market, I still believe that FPS dominates (more than sports and MMO, but they are there as well)

The people who PLAY games as have them as a lifestyle is what I'm talking about, specifically.  The average gamer today is no longer one of platforming and puzzle solving, it's one of shooting, driving, scoring goals and the Wednesday night WoW raid.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: harvey danger on November 25, 2008, 07:42:03 pm
Well, there are a lot of avid gamers that still jump for things like Mario and Zelda. The problem is that games like those don't come along very often.

I know for a fact that people are getting back into Pokemon, too. :P
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: SpeedD on November 26, 2008, 02:56:13 am
Pokemon MMO.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 26, 2008, 03:02:21 am
Pokemon game maker.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: megadokyo on November 26, 2008, 12:17:03 pm
Pokemon Fit.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: yas‮ on November 26, 2008, 01:47:51 pm
Pokemon Pokemon.

It's kinda sad that there are less and less innovative games. You get one original game, then 983249 mildly improved clones of it. I'd like to see more arcade style games, without some wtf-like class b stories, just pure fun oriented games. RPGs were fun a while ago, now they all use the "go there, go there, kill this, talk to that dude, oops, princess is another castle; repeat" scheme. Plus your best AI friend is usually a villain.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 26, 2008, 10:28:38 pm
Pokemon Pokemon.

It's kinda sad that there are less and less innovative games. You get one original game, then 983249 mildly improved clones of it. I'd like to see more arcade style games, without some wtf-like class b stories, just pure fun oriented games. RPGs were fun a while ago, now they all use the "go there, go there, kill this, talk to that dude, oops, princess is another castle; repeat" scheme. Plus your best AI friend is usually a villain.

One problem with innovation is that often companies are punished for it rather than rewarded.

It's dangerous to spend so much money on a "new" way to play a game... if you don't perfect it on your first try critics will rip you APART and your game won't sell well.

amazing article about critics and the gaming culture here: http://kotaku.com/5097355/i-gamer  , by Leigh Alexander.  Goddess of Gaming Journalism.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Torp v2.0 on November 27, 2008, 12:39:15 am
Consoles are where original game play is going to happen.

I am not at all sure you're right about that. Original game play (as opposed to gimmicky controls) will happen where you have developers who are willing to take a chance and make a new and original game. It has little to do with platform.

Also, that top sellers list has a lack of Mirror's Edge. Mirror's Edge needs to sell more.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 27, 2008, 01:09:03 am
Consoles are where original game play is going to happen.

I am not at all sure you're right about that. Original game play (as opposed to gimmicky controls) will happen where you have developers who are willing to take a chance and make a new and original game. It has little to do with platform.

Also, that top sellers list has a lack of Mirror's Edge. Mirror's Edge needs to sell more.

I take it you are targeting the Wii with the "gimmicky controls" remark?

I can't say I can disagree... but let's at least agree that it is not the Wii's fault.
Any of the major 1st titles released have EXCELLENT Wii Controls that do nothing but add to the experience (Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart).

It's the inability of 3rd party developers to use their imagination that ends up with waggle nightmares and "gimmicky" controls.

and yeah Torp, I agree.  It's definitely not just about which platform it's on that will determine original gameplay.

It's just what I SEE when it comes to the world of PC gaming.
lots of FPS, Sims and MMOs.
nothing -terribly- ground breaking.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 27, 2008, 01:53:23 am
One problem with innovation is that often companies are punished for it rather than rewarded.

Such as when sirix needlessly bashed the new banjo games direction before he even played it amirite lolololo?
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 27, 2008, 02:48:52 am
One problem with innovation is that often companies are punished for it rather than rewarded.

Such as when sirix needlessly bashed the new banjo games direction before he even played it amirite lolololo?

perfect example!

I will not defend myself :)
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Torp v2.0 on November 27, 2008, 11:56:07 pm
I was actually referring both to the Wii and the PS3, with its in-control motion sensor thingy.

I am not against these things, but just having them won't innovate by itself. It needs to be used correctly, and even then, it's often not as if it's really innovation in gameplay. Game X, despite innovative controls, may still be just the same old beat-em-up. The really important innovations, for most kinds of games (except maybe party games, which can gain a lot from gimmicky controls (see Guitar Hero, Singstar, Rock Band, etc, etc)), are not dependent upon the control set. A good game really depends on the controls working well, but whether this is achieved through mouse and keyboard, keypad, thingys with motion sensors in them or a spearmint-tasting plastic gum that reacts to how fast you chew it is mostly arbitrary (again, this does not hold true for all games. Guitar Hero is dependent upon its guitars - it's plain boring to play it with regular controllers. And Dance Dance Revolution, if you like that, really needs its dance mat unless you're some freaky weirdo who like pushing buttons to a certain rythm*).

*ok, so really abstracted, you could argue that that is what most musicians do, but fuck it, you get the point.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 28, 2008, 12:42:32 am
I think one thing to notice is that we're talking about the European/US gaming scene. Japan only sends the games to us that will make money, primarily because they have a market all to themselves in their country. I mean, if you go there, games like GTA and Call of Duty don't exist because, to be frank, they think our games are shit.
This is why the 360 remains the least popular over there.

Solution? Move to japan.


Take note that the list SA posted at the top of the page. Only a few japanese-made games on the list.
I think we can safely say, for now, that hardcore console games are dying.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: SomethingApt on November 28, 2008, 06:24:48 am
I mean, if you go there, games like GTA and Call of Duty don't exist because, to be frank, they think our games are shit.

I know the point you're making, but just to be pedantic i'd like to point out that in the month of November, according to vgcharts, GTA4 is the 15th best selling game in Japan. Soooooo... There is SOME room for our games over there, but yeah the market is very different.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 28, 2008, 06:36:10 am
I'm running off info i saw on a program a year or two back, i should probably read up some more recent stuff :P
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: evilcandybag on November 28, 2008, 10:09:59 am
That is also slowly changing now, with both the NDS and PS3 being wholly or partially region independent.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Sirix on November 28, 2008, 04:08:06 pm
I mean, if you go there, games like GTA and Call of Duty don't exist because, to be frank, they think our games are shit.

I know the point you're making, but just to be pedantic i'd like to point out that in the month of November, according to vgcharts, GTA4 is the 15th best selling game in Japan. Soooooo... There is SOME room for our games over there, but yeah the market is very different.

yeah, they're mostly considered to not be a fan of shooters... but since the 360's price drop it has been selling quite well in Japan.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Einkoro on November 29, 2008, 03:48:10 am
yeah, they're mostly considered to not be a fan of shooters...

They are fans of a different type of shooter. Ones that involve unloading your weapon all over underaged animated girls.
Title: Re: The FPS - The MMO - Sports
Post by: Lysix on November 29, 2008, 04:19:26 am
How long did it take you to think of that? :P