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Gaming & Media => Gaming & Media => Topic started by: Kasumi-Astra on June 18, 2006, 05:35:45 pm

Title: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 18, 2006, 05:35:45 pm
Your thoughts on this, please:
http://www.joystickjunkies.com/content/item.asp?item=41 (http://www.joystickjunkies.com/content/item.asp?item=41)

Here's what I had to say at Joystiq.com:

(You can view these in context here: http://www.joystiq.com/2006/06/17/booth-babes-eat-your-heart-out/#comments (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/06/17/booth-babes-eat-your-heart-out/#comments))


"What will be cool is if we can get the girls in places like FHM and other big media that currently couldn't give a monkeys about gaming.What will be cool is if we can get the girls in places like FHM and other big media that currently couldn't give a monkeys about gaming."
FHM? Wow, they'll do a brilliant job of quashing the girl gamer stereotype. Forgive me if I sound a little underwhelmed at that prospect.

Why exactly should gamers have to be glamorous? As far as I remember, games are played for fun. People who play for status and prestige are routinely ridiculed by the gaming public because they are shallow people and their intentions are so transparent.

The games industry has evolved to a status comparable to Hollywood without the aid of a glamourous stereotype dictating the person you can become if you spent money buying games.

The best way to get the mass market into games is to get them to try. If the game is accessible enough and fun to play, they will buy more games.

Of course you're trying to market your clothing, but doing so by exploiting girl gamers as stereotypes and novelties is wrong, and cannot benefit the wider industry in any way.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 18, 2006, 08:54:03 pm
agreed.  but its life, eh?  this wont be successful.  games that overly objectify women traditionally dont fare well (GTA being the only exception that comes to mind).

this is one of the demands in the Gamer's Manifesto.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html

it's a bit old, but still solid.  here's the important part:
Quote
Chances of [the industry no longer objectifying women] happening...

Sadly, the proven money-making designers in the industry are the same ones that have given us Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball and Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (where the main character rampages though a city populated with violent men and sex-crazed street whores). As it turns out, they’re all men. The female demographic is seen as something that can be “targeted” by adding features to existing games, such as in-game clothes shopping, in-game makeup application and in-game cute animal pets. Game creators aren’t just casually missing the point, they’re showing a unified front of stupidity.

There is hope however. Like all industry, it is inevitable that females will eventually forge their place in the world of game design. The female designers will burst on the scene soon enough, heaving their giant bosoms of talent and creativity and brandishing their black thongs of diversity.

as a side note, i love how the defense of our objectification objectifies us.  way to go!
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 18, 2006, 08:56:30 pm
(https://www.joystickjunkies.com/UserFiles/Image/Joystick%20Girls/Samantha-Tansey-web.jpg)

How does she play games with a mutated left hand?

lmfao.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Valentine Revolution on June 18, 2006, 09:46:07 pm
I feel the need to stand up for Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball a bit. I think its actually a pretty good game for girls; making freinds and buying outfits and gifts. DoA as a whole has a big appeal to the female market. I've met girls who aren;t really big on games but love Doa because its fairly easy to play plus the like unlocking all the extra costumes and stuff.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 18, 2006, 09:51:40 pm
right.  becuase allllll we want to do is buy costumes and stuff.

seriously, why cant there just be NORMAL girls in games, and have them have leading roles?  why do they need to be prostitutes and/or supermodels?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 18, 2006, 09:55:55 pm
I quite like Dead or Alive. Bouncing breasts and skant costumes aside, the women are portrayed with strength and purpose. They're not pictured in overly-suggestive poses. They're not exploited as much as Lara Croft or women in games such as BMX XXX.

Dead or Alive offers female characters that you don't have to feel cynical about playing.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Valentine Revolution on June 18, 2006, 10:06:33 pm
right.  becuase allllll we want to do is buy costumes and stuff.

seriously, why cant there just be NORMAL girls in games, and have them have leading roles?  why do they need to be prostitutes and/or supermodels?

All I meant was, for all people tout DoA as being a male game, it has some very female elements to it.

As for female leads, Fatal Frame/ Project Zero? Beyond Good and Evil? Few and far between perhaps; but still there.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 18, 2006, 10:15:58 pm
Final Fantasy VI's main story centers around Terra. It's more of a compilation of different character's stories, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider Terra a female lead.

Before Starcraft Ghost was canned, it had a female lead.

Then you have to consider the legions of guy gamers that play female characters predominantly in MMOs like WoW or Everquest. There's clearly a large portion of people, even a large fraction of men who have an interest in playing as a woman.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 18, 2006, 10:29:19 pm
yeah...

it just seems like for every Terra, theres 40 Rikku's, for every good one, theres a ton of bads.

and your right on the MMO part.  except for those men who play females because they like staring at their avatars.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Outboundlight on June 18, 2006, 11:35:05 pm
right.  becuase allllll we want to do is buy costumes and stuff.

seriously, why cant there just be NORMAL girls in games, and have them have leading roles?  why do they need to be prostitutes and/or supermodels?

All I meant was, for all people tout DoA as being a male game, it has some very female elements to it.

As for female leads, Fatal Frame/ Project Zero? Beyond Good and Evil? Few and far between perhaps; but still there.

Eternal Darkness also, to an extent.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Einkoro on June 18, 2006, 11:59:55 pm
right.  becuase allllll we want to do is buy costumes and stuff.

seriously, why cant there just be NORMAL girls in games, and have them have leading roles?  why do they need to be prostitutes and/or supermodels?

All I meant was, for all people tout DoA as being a male game, it has some very female elements to it.

As for female leads, Fatal Frame/ Project Zero? Beyond Good and Evil? Few and far between perhaps; but still there.

Eternal Darkness also, to an extent.

The Longest Journey, Dreamfall: The Longest Journey, Perfect Dark and No One Lives Forever. Those are about the only games I can think of that had women in leading roles that weren't the typical giant break your back boobs and impossible tiny waists.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on June 19, 2006, 12:08:57 am
Silent Hill 3
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Smeagol on June 19, 2006, 01:36:06 am
Eternal Darkness also, to an extent.

Alex Roivas was easily the best character in ED. Some of the other characters seemed so dull by comparison, case in point being Karim.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on June 19, 2006, 01:44:56 pm
hm I am missing a Bubble Bobble T-shirt on that page... I fancy the Gauntlet one, though, and of course the California Games one is cool too, apart from the colour...

uh, anyway, on topic:

Then you have to consider the legions of guy gamers that play female characters predominantly in MMOs like WoW or Everquest. There's clearly a large portion of people, even a large fraction of men who have an interest in playing as a woman.

indeed...

(http://david.kr3m-demo.de/raid10b.jpg)

Somehow I always liked strong, believable female characters in games, and often play one myself.
And all the tits-n-butts girls in games always annoyed me. It just takes away the immersion and distracts from the game when all females you deal with are porn stars. And it feels awkward to play, like the game is yelling at you "you are a male nerd!" all the time. Well, it seems such games actually humilate men, not women  :P

This is for example one of my (if minor) few gripes with one of my most favourite games ever, Planescape: Torment. I mean, in the game itself it's ok, but in the diary or what where alle the creatures you have met so far are listed... well, compare those two depictions of upper-class townpersons:

(http://david.kr3m-demo.de/TownieL.jpg)
(http://david.kr3m-demo.de/Townie2L.jpg)

That's one thing I liked about HL2, though I didn't play very far, but that Alyx (?) character looks pretty normal, doesn't she?

rant over.

edit: though the line-up of girls on that page in that context somehow reminds of some old school games like Maniac Mansion or Street Sports Basketball... I somehow feel the urge to pick my team among them  ;D
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Jack Lupino on June 19, 2006, 04:21:58 pm
I didn't get the mutated left hand joke from fallout.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 19, 2006, 05:46:21 pm
I didn't get the mutated left hand joke from fallout.


In the thumbnail, it only looks like she has three fingers.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Miles_Ex_Machina on June 19, 2006, 07:44:42 pm
I pity people that play games coz they think it's cool. I started playing games waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before it was cool, and still do play games from time to time, and don't give a damn if it's cool or not. But like any veteran I do like vintage games, and despise sport games, which come out in dozen numbers every month and don't ever bring anything new to the scene, except for improved graphix.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on June 19, 2006, 08:21:44 pm
dude what the fuck does that mean
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Miles_Ex_Machina on June 19, 2006, 08:24:35 pm
Don't know myself. Don't pay any attention to me till the end of the week, when I get to do exams I get stoopid just after finishing them ( hopefully ), like a kick-back effect of some sort.

P.S.: Just kiddin'. I read the first post very quick, and didn't quite get the meaning of the whole thread I guess. That shit happens.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on June 19, 2006, 11:25:57 pm
Poking in to say that the protagonist's gender doesn't matter in the games I make, that is, they don't objectify or stereotype neither men nor women. At least I hope so. So I'm trying my best to help what little I can. Hero and Retrobattle had male heroes, but their pixelly forms and movements didn't really indicate that they were males. In Castle of Elite you could choose different "skins", and in Iji the main character's an averagely-proportioned girl with no distinct "feminine" traits as such. But she's not overly bad-ass just to "even the scales" either. I'm just trying to make her and her male friend human and believable.

I haven't read the article in the first post (shock!) but I think a good example of the subject would be Super Princess Peach, where Peach rescues Mario - though her special power is mood swings, and the game's considerably easier than the average Mario game.

I'm all for games that don't sell on objectification, but saying that female game developers would be different and superior to the male is to ignore the men who actually try to make a difference. (Not pointing out anyone in particular, but some people seem to like to use this argument.)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Jack Lupino on June 20, 2006, 06:01:25 pm
I didn't get the mutated left hand joke from fallout.


In the thumbnail, it only looks like she has three fingers.
Dude, are you blind ?

I know you know she has 5 fingers, but you can really see that properly.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 21, 2006, 12:37:06 am
Slightly blind, after that incident with MagicMan.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Viherminttu on June 21, 2006, 09:29:55 am
what i dont get is why all this talk about girl gamers? who cares what gender someone is. is there all these articles on guy gamers? no.

its not a gender thing. if you game, youre a gamer. why segregate it into girl gamers and guy gamers?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 21, 2006, 02:59:16 pm
Because when you introduce girls into the equation, you can generate interest from the mainstream. What they're trying to do is to sell the story to FHM to entice business from the thousands of people who would not normally buy their clothes. The idea goes that if girls are seen modelling the clothes and being gamers, gaming won't be seen as geeky anymore.
Basically they're creating a "friendly" image of gamers that the mass market can buy into, as most gamers don't touch their clothes with a barge pole (you should see what UK Resistance had to say about this stunt).

Well, of course they're entitled to make money, but he's trying to justify this to gamers across the net as an honest, good attempt at giving girl gamers exposure and to bring fresh blood to the scene wheras in fact it's just a cynical attempt to cash in on girl gamers and make money for their company.
He then made the mistake of posting a comment in Joystiq trying to justify this stunt as a genuine effort for a good cause. Fool.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on June 21, 2006, 03:17:45 pm
what i dont get is why all this talk about girl gamers? who cares what gender someone is. is there all these articles on guy gamers? no.

its not a gender thing. if you game, youre a gamer. why segregate it into girl gamers and guy gamers?

Still haven't read the article, but...

The quote above was kind of what I was trying to get at with my last paragraph, but I guess it's like people making a big deal out of sexual preferences or some political or religious beliefs; because they're a minority. And minorities are different, strange, unknown, and something the masses don't understand, so they need a special nametag, people speaking for their rights to be acknowledged like the majority (eventhough they may already be), and giving them more attention than members of the majority. If a man spends a long time studying and working hard to become the president in a male-dominated field, say a large videogame company, and at the same time a woman does the same, you'll get the headline "the first female president of a large videogame company". No mention of these peoples' hard work will appear; it's more interesting that she was a woman. Or black. Or homosexual. Or Pastafarian (look it up).

It's like a funny little story about an evening paper headline, that said "pregnant woman found a raw shrimp in her chicken wings" or something to that effect. It was a true headline at any rate. But the writer stopped to let the audience ponder, "is it more terrible becasue the woman was pregnant? Maybe it's quite gross whether or not you are pregnant, really." That's a good example of making something even more special because of one condition or another that is usually in the minority.

People don't wear t-shirts proclaiming they're guy gamers, but some girl gamers do. Because it's the "norm" to be a guy gamer, and "different" to not be, which appereantly makes it justified to make a deal out of it.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is: with every new idea, preference, belief or belonging to a group that media suddenly discovers (or discovers it can make money on!), we're getting more and more of these "girl gamers are gamers too" type stuff, and as a result we're getting more segregated, because in our quest to be equal we focus more and more on our differencies.

My female friend's a major gamer and doesn't think anything special of it. Heck, all my female cousins have played or still plays videogames. They don't feel the need to place special labels on themselves. And unlike what major producers seem to think, they don't play games differently than me or solely enjoy games like Barbie's Horse Adventure. It's everything from Tetris to Starcraft for them as well.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Aurin on June 21, 2006, 06:59:14 pm
Just... ehh. Reminds me of couple of girls in my previous school. I saw them wearing these Space Invaders t-shirts one day and I mentioned something about them... They seriously had no idea what I was talking about.
To me those shirts look just like any other shirts out there with some arcade-gibberish printed on them. The new trend is to not to be "one in a million", right? Like when Hennes & Mauritz sold Ramones t-shirts, when the fangirl-look was "hot". Marketeers, always searching for new ways to bring out something "special" for the masses wanting to be "special".
I don't mean I/we/whatever'd be somehow holier/better/whatever, it's just... Too many times I've found myself asking, what's the big deal? Why to be interested in something you really aren't interested in?

And many, many times I've been wishing I was raised as a boy, haha, just to not to get the extra attention or special treatment because of my gender + interests. They're just interests after all. And are under the effect of many other things. u_u;
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 21, 2006, 09:14:55 pm
slightly OT: i saw someone wearing a t'shirt that said "Looks like somebody's got a case of the Mondays!"  i told her "i love that movie!"  and she looked at me like i was retarded.  why in the hell would you wear a t-shirt from a movie you've never seen?! especially Office Space!

back On Topic: at GenCon, i spent about 8 hours in the gaming area.  half of the guys there were all OMFG GUYS GO EASY ON HER!  there were a few guys who didnt treat me like a doll, and they've been some of the coolest gaming buds ive ever made.  we led a 18 vs 3 CTF game (we were the heads of the 18 side, playing against the top three national champs.  we lost), and we had a blast.  when people can just ignore the fact that we have an input instead of an output, then its fine.  but every time someone is all *whisper wisper GIRL wisper wisper*, it makes me want to leave, because its offensive.  i dont play video games to be worshipped.  i play video games for the same reason you do, so treat me the same way.

some people do, some people dont.  its life, but its something i get upset over.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Lysander on June 21, 2006, 09:43:15 pm
I don't get why guys get all worked up/excited when they meet girl gamers. It's perhaps they are antisocial geeks.
If i meet a girl who plays games, i treat them as i would anybody else. Doesn't make a difference to me.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Bates on June 21, 2006, 10:04:17 pm
Barbie's Horse Adventure was fucking awesome. Though a bit short. After eight hours I had already unlocked the unicorn.

I love how fashion and marketing people "discover" subcultures to make tons of money. And even more the fact that there are millions of spineless lemmings following every trend they create. As long as it works, why not. I'd say we create a "Machinae Forum member" style / clothing label and make millions.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 21, 2006, 11:03:26 pm
I don't get why guys get all worked up/excited when they meet girl gamers. It's perhaps they are antisocial geeks.
If i meet a girl who plays games, i treat them as i would anybody else. Doesn't make a difference to me.

thank you.  thats how it should be.

I love how fashion and marketing people "discover" subcultures to make tons of money. And even more the fact that there are millions of spineless lemmings following every trend they create. As long as it works, why not. I'd say we create a "Machinae Forum member" style / clothing label and make millions.
the problem is, nobody would want to look like one of us.

ok, that was a lie.  people would want to look like us.  just not Fallout.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on June 21, 2006, 11:27:36 pm
I don't get why guys get all worked up/excited when they meet girl gamers. It's perhaps they are antisocial geeks.
If i meet a girl who plays games, i treat them as i would anybody else. Doesn't make a difference to me.


well, on the other hand, I can understand some of it (save unmature/AOL behaviour of course). Basically, guys want gals, right? And even more so if the gal seems to share some of your interests, and especially if that is rather hard to find. E.g. I can only think of one girl right now whom I know personally and who might play more than some niche game like Sims 2... basically she's the little sister of a friend of mine who had an Amiga in the old days. But I haven't even seen her like since 7 years or something, so....

Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 21, 2006, 11:34:07 pm
but when we play videogames, we arent looking for a date!  we're looking to play videogames!  if we go out to a club and stuff, THEN make a move and such.  but when we're gaming?  thats like hitting on a guy while he's reading a book.  "OMFG I LOVE STAR WARS SEX ME NOW PLEES"

if a girl ever said taht to a guy in that situation, and you were intently reading, you'd probably be a little turned off of her.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on June 21, 2006, 11:41:06 pm
well and that's why I said, I understand *part* of it, and, save unmature behaviour. I also really understand you in that such things can get annoying...

oh and btw if I meet a girl in real life that shows interest in things which most girls only frown upon, then yeah, that makes me at least a little bit curious. doesn't mean I'll start talking in caps, though  ;)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 22, 2006, 12:19:40 am
is it possible to speak IN caps?  that'd be so awesome!
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Smeagol on June 22, 2006, 02:32:32 am
is it possible to speak IN caps?

Yes. Yes it is.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: dialupdaemon on June 22, 2006, 07:03:31 am
We call it yelling?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 22, 2006, 07:54:32 am
We call it yelling?

was that a question.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 22, 2006, 10:59:59 am
We call it yelling?

was that a question.

Was that? :P
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 22, 2006, 11:43:56 am
We call it yelling?

was that a question.

Was that? :P

:P thats the point, hehe.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trezker on June 22, 2006, 11:53:49 am
I always play my best from the beginning.
Though if my opponents suck I relax and try to pull off some unneccesary stunts that a likely to get me killed. If I'm the one that sucks, I get bored and stop playing after a while.
Who I play against doesn't matter, I'm looking at the screen, not the opponent.

There's a girl programmer in my school that has some cool gaming t-shirts.
One says "Playing video games makes me sexy". I think that's true in her case...
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on June 22, 2006, 12:55:29 pm
I don't see how her hobby alters her appearance, though. :P She doesn't seem like the kind of person who'd make a big deal out of being a girl on top of being a gamer, then again the guys pretty much jumped on her around here (not you Trez).

Not that I care about what's "sexy", I've never understood the deal with that. Guess I have a shortage of hormones or something - considering what's called "manly", I feel more like a girl than a guy.

Btw, how do I remove those useless arcade scores under my avatar? The avatar already makes my posts large enough.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 22, 2006, 01:43:26 pm
Completely off topic but, noticing the amount of cats in this thread (is it be hugs tiem now plees?, dimruthiens cat, and a few others)

I just laughed my ass off, remembered that "A cat is nice too."

Oh, and on topic, sex always sells, who cares if people complain, breasts are good.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 22, 2006, 02:33:32 pm
Oh, boobs are good... But it's a low, low tatic to use boobs to sell your products. And then to post on various sites around the web claiming it's for a greater cause.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Lexx on June 22, 2006, 05:38:46 pm
Oh, boobs are good... But it's a low, low tatic to use boobs to sell your products. And then to post on various sites around the web claiming it's for a greater cause.

I like boobs, but if someone tried to sell me a product with them I'd put me right off. I find it insults my intelligence.

Like those Lynx ads, "Spray more, get more." Do they think we're fucking stupid?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kobi on June 22, 2006, 09:38:34 pm
I like boobs, but if someone tried to sell me a product with them I'd put me right off. I find it insults my intelligence.

Like those Lynx ads, "Spray more, get more." Do they think we're fucking stupid?

They do and obviosly many are that stupid. There is much truth to it. Some dude at a college or uni stated that beauty has a similar effect on people.
http://www.metro.se/se/article/2006/06/22/07/0356-23/index.xml (sorry, swedish paper, found no english)
But boobs in particular, I doubt it. Often a good looking blonde girl helps sell things.
https://www.joystickjunkies.com/UserFiles/Image/Joystick%20Girls/lorena-web.jpg
This image botherd me cause there's to much fo a pron-star look to it. Feels cheaper then the rest.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 22, 2006, 10:16:29 pm
When I say boobs, I was simplifying a little. Blonde hair, big boobs, skimpy clothing etc... All of it can draw attention to anything you want.

I particularly disliked that photo. How can you justify that as giving girl gamers some good publicity? I also disliked the one that's looking down towards the camera with tonnes of makeup on and a vacant look in her face.

I also loved the one that owns an Atari Master System. I'm not accusing them of being fakes, but that one takes the biscuit.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kobi on June 22, 2006, 11:44:43 pm
I also loved the one that owns an Atari Master System. I'm not accusing them of being fakes, but that one takes the biscuit.

Bingo
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on June 23, 2006, 05:25:00 am
Quote
I just laughed my ass off, remembered that "A cat is nice too."
A

B
A
B
Y

I
S

N
I
C
E

T
O
O
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trezker on June 25, 2006, 10:03:20 am
Nothing can make me pay 500 SEK for a single game. Much better to spend that money on hardware so I can play them.

I've only bought 2 games at that price, and that's because I never paid for the earlier games in the series.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: CrunchyLizard on June 25, 2006, 04:07:02 pm
Nothing can make me pay 500 SEK for a single game.

Good for you that you don't live in Denmark then. Games here are usually 500 DKK which is more than 600 SEK. And which is the reason I rarely buy games in stores here.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 25, 2006, 08:56:13 pm
I have to agree about the comment made about Final Fantasy's portrayl of female characters. Sure, Yuna's supposed to be strong internally, but in all honesty she doesn't ever do much except cry out and get kidnapped by Guado...And if we try Lula, well, she may be the strong and silent type but what's up with the constant references (visually) to her breasts?! All the female characters in FFX have very low physical attacks-I want a female character that weilds a big-ass sword (Auron-style) for once!  ::)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 25, 2006, 08:58:54 pm
Then go play Suikoden III.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 25, 2006, 09:11:26 pm
Nja, I like FF just fine in terms of gameplay, just not the way there are no girls with big swords  ;D
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 25, 2006, 09:25:11 pm
Ironically enough, gameplay is exactly the reason I stay away from the dreaded Final Fantasy series.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Smeagol on June 25, 2006, 09:34:25 pm
gameplay is exactly the reason I stay away from the dreaded Final Fantasy series.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 25, 2006, 10:06:08 pm
The gameplay was rather bland, but it was the storyline that was the winning factor for them. FF7 definately had the best storyline IMHO, and coming in a close 2nd was FF10, (not 10-2, that was shit)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 01:24:22 am
FFX was the FF game I was talking about. I played 9 too, but it doesn't compare to the superior graphics and speech in X. FFX had a good storyline, very epik...some people don't like FF games because they have too deep a plot and not enough hack-slash...! Personally I like games that have a plot  ::)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 26, 2006, 01:27:37 am
FFX was the FF game I was talking about. I played 9 too, but it doesn't compare to the superior graphics and speech in X. FFX had a good storyline, very epik...some people don't like FF games because they have too deep a plot and not enough hack-slash...! Personally I like games that have a plot  ::)

Your first +karma. <3
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 01:35:21 am
Tack  ;D ;D
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 26, 2006, 01:36:42 am
And your first asshole deciding to take away that first +karma.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 01:38:40 am
Does it make any difference? If not I really don't mind.
Too laid-bak for my own good I guess  ;)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 01:58:02 am
FFX was the FF game I was talking about. I played 9 too, but it doesn't compare to the superior graphics and speech in X. FFX had a good storyline, very epik...some people don't like FF games because they have too deep a plot and not enough hack-slash...! Personally I like games that have a plot  ::)

I like plot. I just hate tedious overdrawn battle segments. Something, which every FF is full of.

And please, do play some Planescape: Torment. I can guarantee you that the depth and uniqueness of the plot is something you'll never see in an FF.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 02:43:45 am
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 26, 2006, 03:09:37 am
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o


CoD2 ftw. :P
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: not12x on June 26, 2006, 03:58:31 am
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o


CoD2 ftw. :P

+1 for referencing a game i got you back into playing.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 26, 2006, 03:59:15 am
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o


CoD2 ftw. :P

+1 for referencing a game i got you back into playing.

-1 FFS LOL
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trezker on June 26, 2006, 08:34:06 am
If you want story and plot you see movies and read books!

Games are not supposed to have a purpose!
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 09:51:43 am
I beg to differ.  ;)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 26, 2006, 11:01:31 am
I'm not a big fan of FFX's characterisation. Call me fangirlish, but I think it's gone downhill since FFVI. VII was a better game overall than VI, but the characterisation just fell a little short. It peaked again with IX, but FFX was terrible. Mostly due to the awful voice acting.

I think the sprites in VI had much more attention to character, and the lack of high-end graphics left more time for more imaginative dialogue and character development. Kefka's laugh, Locke's headband washed up on a beach, the Opera scene, Edgar's finger wagging... It's all top class stuff :-)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 11:47:29 am
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o


Again...Fallout has turn-based battle. Silent Storm has turn-based battle. Technically speaking, even Torment has turn-based battle, though there are no pauses between turns and you have to pause the game manually. That is not my problem.

And off I go, here's the reason why I don't like Final Fantasy.

My problem is the whole silly notion of "Okay, we take two steps here in the desert and we're attacked! Now we have a line here and you guys have a line there". First of all, RANDOM battles with no way of preventing them. At least give me a skill I can use to prevent the constant effing tedious stream of random battles. Second, my problem is not in strategic battle but LACK of it. I can't place my units anywhere,  I can't tell my guys that I want a headshot, I can't tell them to go mine the entrance to that shack so that when a burly guy enters, he's screwed. Uh, no can do. All I have is a menu with ATTACK, MAGIC and possibly FLEE but the last option can't be used 99% of the time you really need it.

Come on, even the first Pool of Radiance had more strategy to its battles than Final Fantasy games ever had. The only Final Fantasy I've ever felt remotely interested in would be Tactics, but once I heard that it's one of the crappiest game translations known to man, I decided it wouldn't be worth my time considering we're speaking of a game series that emphasizes plot.

I also despise people calling the jRPGs RPGs to begin with, since you do everything except play a role in those games. Might as well start calling FPS games RPGs then. But that's another story for another post. And I truthfully wouldn't have problems playing jRPGs is I didn't see the glaring problems in the gameplay.

AHEM...there's sand on my boots.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: CrunchyLizard on June 26, 2006, 12:50:46 pm
All I have is a menu with ATTACK, MAGIC and possibly FLEE but the last option can't be used 99% of the time you really need it.

Well you know in FFX Tidus (and everybody else, actually) could learn an ability called Flee which afaik would let you escape all the time as long as you weren't in a story-related boss battle of course.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on June 26, 2006, 01:54:52 pm
I agree about the lack of gameplay in the FF series, at least up to and including 8 (I haven't played an FF since then, so I can't speak about X etc, bear this in mind). They're movies with annoying random battles in between, that break the realism that 7 and 8 in particular try to produce - where do the enemies pop up from? Are you walking around a huge battlefield filled with enemies, even indoors and large empty spaces, only everyone is invisible until you bump into them? And unlike strategy games, turn-based or not, if you're not good enough to beat an enemy/ boss/scenario, all you have to do is wander around doing random battles for several hours, and whatever strategy there was gets crushed by your characters' raw power. The final battles in IV to VIII, which were supposed to be epic and lethal, were pathetic after some leveling and learning the right attacks / finding the right equips. And if someone died, one of your 99 Phoenix Downs took care of that problem.

As books or movies, several of the FF games have a lot of merit. But not really as games, in my taste. The one I've enjoyed the most was FF Tactics Advance, but not when my characters started leveling faster than the enemies, and it turned into another mash-fest that tried to look strategical. In the end it had nothing on Advance Wars.

I also agree with the genre "RPG" being way off real role-playing games. Playing a role doesn't mean your character's entire story is predetermined, but that you create a unique one yourself.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 26, 2006, 02:51:37 pm
Please try to remember that the only reason Final Fantasy has kept it's formula the same is because it sells. You've seen what happened with FFXII where they made a radical change to the tried and tested formula, and the fans hated it.
Final Fantasy is successful because it keeps to the same spirit of the original. Formulaic, yes, but also very familiar and easy to understand. Square keeps coming back to this design because it means that the people that buy the games can use the skills they've learned in the previous games to play, and still have some new gameplay elements introduced to liven things up. Then there's always a new story and new characters. Not fantastically plotty but accessible and easy to enjoy.

Is there any wonder why Final Fantasy continues to be a huge brand in Japan and around the world? Of course not, because it always plays by the same rules which are easy to understand.

If you want more advanced RPGs by the same tallent, try Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy Tatics or Vagrant Story. Remember, complexity, difficulty or even straight sales figures are not the only measures of a good game. Final Fantasy, Fallout, Diablo, Bauldur's Gate and all the other famous RPGs are all great games that all come highly recommended that have these in different measures. It's just down to which ones you enjoy more.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 03:09:23 pm
Please try to remember that the only reason Final Fantasy has kept it's formula the same is because it sells.

Not trying to dispute that the ubiquitous rule of supply and demand is at work here.

And I didn't say "I don't like Final Fantasy because all those games are same in the end". What I did do was complain about the formula itself (which I consider asinine) and wondering what it is that makes the formula so popular.

Oh, and by the way, Diablo isn't what I would consider an RPG either. It's hack'n'slash, sure, and it has levels. But roleplaying? Nada.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on June 26, 2006, 03:20:35 pm
you heard the man! go play planescape!
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Fallout on June 26, 2006, 03:27:28 pm
I can understand where you're coming from-some people just don't like turn-based battle systems. I do. I enjoy it immensely.
I like planning out a strategy on a really tough mother of a boss, and not having to worry about bashing the appropriate buttons fast enough/at the right time.
Final Fantasy is one of those games that rewards good gameplay-gotta love the movie sequences interspersed throughout the game  ;)
On the other end of the scale, I also thoroughly enjoy a good game of CODUO. Nothing like a bash-kill on a camper!  :o


Again...Fallout has turn-based battle. Silent Storm has turn-based battle. Technically speaking, even Torment has turn-based battle, though there are no pauses between turns and you have to pause the game manually. That is not my problem.

And off I go, here's the reason why I don't like Final Fantasy.

My problem is the whole silly notion of "Okay, we take two steps here in the desert and we're attacked! Now we have a line here and you guys have a line there". First of all, RANDOM battles with no way of preventing them. At least give me a skill I can use to prevent the constant effing tedious stream of random battles. Second, my problem is not in strategic battle but LACK of it. I can't place my units anywhere,  I can't tell my guys that I want a headshot, I can't tell them to go mine the entrance to that shack so that when a burly guy enters, he's screwed. Uh, no can do. All I have is a menu with ATTACK, MAGIC and possibly FLEE but the last option can't be used 99% of the time you really need it.

Come on, even the first Pool of Radiance had more strategy to its battles than Final Fantasy games ever had. The only Final Fantasy I've ever felt remotely interested in would be Tactics, but once I heard that it's one of the crappiest game translations known to man, I decided it wouldn't be worth my time considering we're speaking of a game series that emphasizes plot.

I also despise people calling the jRPGs RPGs to begin with, since you do everything except play a role in those games. Might as well start calling FPS games RPGs then. But that's another story for another post. And I truthfully wouldn't have problems playing jRPGs is I didn't see the glaring problems in the gameplay.

AHEM...there's sand on my boots.

I have what now?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 05:20:17 pm
/me thwaps Fallout with a pipboy
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Smeagol on June 26, 2006, 08:22:12 pm
/me thwaps Fallout with a pipboy

Aimed Gauss Rifle shots to the eyes are far more effective.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 08:25:24 pm
/me shot Fiindil in the eyes doing 924 points of damage. The wound causes severe blindness, as if there is any other kind.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 26, 2006, 09:48:35 pm
Please try to remember that the only reason Final Fantasy has kept it's formula the same is because it sells.

Not trying to dispute that the ubiquitous rule of supply and demand is at work here.

And I didn't say "I don't like Final Fantasy because all those games are same in the end". What I did do was complain about the formula itself (which I consider asinine) and wondering what it is that makes the formula so popular.

Oh, and by the way, Diablo isn't what I would consider an RPG either. It's hack'n'slash, sure, and it has levels. But roleplaying? Nada.

I spelt out exactly what makes it popular. Tried and tested gameplay mechanics and interesting, accessible plot and characterisation. Turn based combat is getting old, but it clearly still has many merits. Why take it out the back and shoot it at the bottom of the garden if it's still so popular? It's a similar story with Treasure. They're still making games that were long ago consigned to the scrapheap by popular gaming culture, but still command a strong cult following and some of the highest prices on eBay.

You're complaining about the formula, but it's that formula that has made it popular, ensures its future as a franchise and what continues to make installments so accessible and enjoyable to the gamers that follow the series.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on June 26, 2006, 09:51:24 pm
/me shot Fiindil in the eyes doing 924 points of damage. The wound causes severe blindness, as if there is any other kind.

power fist ftw
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on June 26, 2006, 10:19:41 pm
It's a similar story with Treasure. They're still making games that were long ago consigned to the scrapheap by popular gaming culture, but still command a strong cult following and some of the highest prices on eBay.
I don't recall Treasure ever rehashing the same concept more than twice. I didn't even know they were considered bad by "popular gaming culture", just unknown. I loved the outstanding Gunstar Heroes, Mischief Makers and Ikaruga before I realized they were made by the same company. They've had their bad games too, but I don't see how you can compare a company that creates wildly diverse games to the FF series.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Lexx on June 26, 2006, 10:23:57 pm
Aimed Gauss Rifle shots to the eyes are far more effective.

Naw. Firing 4 Gauss rifle shots a round with bonus rate of fire, fast shot, sniper and action boy (x2) is far more effective.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 10:31:02 pm
And off I go, here's the reason why I don't like Final Fantasy.

My problem is the whole silly notion of "Okay, we take two steps here in the desert and we're attacked! Now we have a line here and you guys have a line there". First of all, RANDOM battles with no way of preventing them. At least give me a skill I can use to prevent the constant effing tedious stream of random battles. Second, my problem is not in strategic battle but LACK of it. I can't place my units anywhere,  I can't tell my guys that I want a headshot, I can't tell them to go mine the entrance to that shack so that when a burly guy enters, he's screwed. Uh, no can do. All I have is a menu with ATTACK, MAGIC and possibly FLEE but the last option can't be used 99% of the time you really need it.

Hmm...it seems you have not played FF so much then...
Firstly, you can stop random battles if you progress in the game by equipping weapons which have the 'encounter none' effect...this has been in almost all the FF games I have played.
Secondly, you can choose where you characters go whereby you select either attack or defensive positions. No, you can't make them to score a headshot, but you CAN get your accuracy stat's up and have almost 100% accurate hits.
The menus on FF are rather more advanced than you give them credit for, there are quite a number of other options. And, in FFX, you can learn Flee with Tidus almost straight-away, and you can use it on all but boss battles (I know it's been said but I'm just backing up my point).
Last but not least, I would like to point out that FF games are not about blowing up mine shafts or placing units, so saying that you can't do those things is pretty much a moot point.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 11:13:57 pm
Quote
Firstly, you can stop random battles if you progress in the game by equipping weapons which have the 'encounter none' effect...this has been in almost all the FF games I have played.

Doesn't change the fact that they're force-fed to you. I did play FF6 till the World of Ruin, but by then I was so sick of the whole system that I just quit. I haven't played any Final Fantasy after 8, though, but haven't seen any reason to, either.

Quote
The menus on FF are rather more advanced than you give them credit for, there are quite a number of other options. And, in FFX, you can learn Flee with Tidus almost straight-away, and you can use it on all but boss battles (I know it's been said but I'm just backing up my point).
Last but not least, I would like to point out that FF games are not about blowing up mine shafts or placing units, so saying that you can't do those things is pretty much a moot point.

Mine. As in placing a mine. As in...laying out a trap. Not possible in FF.

I knew that someone would misunderstand what I meant. By "placing units", I meant "placing characters". My point was this: no matter how many options there are in an average FF menu, there are no options that make it possible for me to...say...lay out an elaborate trap. Since I can't move my characters on the map during battle. And even the first Pool of Radiance had this. Compared to most western rpgs (although, like I said, FF doesn't count as a role-playing game in Fraeon's big list of RPGs), there isn't really that to go with variety when it comes to battle in FF. There, that's easier for you to understand.

Quote
No, you can't make them to score a headshot, but you CAN get your accuracy stat's up and have almost 100% accurate hits.

That is exactly my point. I can't aim for the legs so that when the turn is over, they're crawling instead of walking. I can't aim for their hands so that next time it's their turn, they can't use their weapons. All I have is a darn accuracy stat I can raise with buffs.

What else, what else? I like being able to do quests in different ways instead of having just one way to do it. Again, Fallout has this. I can play through the game without shooting anyone if I don't want to (it's darn hard, but possible).

/me wants Fallout 3 NOW!

I did hear that FFXII resembled KotOR more in battle than it did any previous FF, so I might try that out when it comes out. Nothing like Backstreet Boyos as main characters.  :-*
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 26, 2006, 11:37:29 pm
Doesn't change the fact that they're force-fed to you. I did play FF6 till the World of Ruin, but by then I was so sick of the whole system that I just quit. I haven't played any Final Fantasy after 8, though, but haven't seen any reason to, either.

I knew that someone would misunderstand what I meant. By "placing units", I meant "placing characters". My point was this: no matter how many options there are in an average FF menu, there are no options that make it possible for me to...say...lay out an elaborate trap. Since I can't move my characters on the map during battle. And even the first Pool of Radiance had this. Compared to most western rpgs (although, like I said, FF doesn't count as a role-playing game in Fraeon's big list of RPGs), there isn't really that to go with variety when it comes to battle in FF. There, that's easier for you to understand.

I don't think that 'force-fed' is a very accurate description...more like a reward for playing the game well. Sure, it's not a very open game in the sense that you can't control absolutely everything that happens, but that's just not the type of game it is.
No, you cannot lay a trap. But again, that's not the type of game it is-although I admit it would be a nice feature. And personally I describe games myself not by what other people call them. Does it actually matter? I think not. Lists, blah.
And as for 'making it easier for me to understand'... ::)
Lastly, if you knew someone was going to take what you said the wrong way, why not clarify from the start?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 26, 2006, 11:40:57 pm
Quote
Sure, it's not a very open game in the sense that you can't control absolutely everything that happens, but that's just not the type of game it is.

And that is why I prefer my RPGs western. Much. More. Freedom. In just about every sense. I also don't appreciate being told that I only like non-stop action and hack-hack-slash-slash paired with a shallow plot just because the Japanese way of battling in RPGs seriously rubs me the wrong way.

Quote
Lastly, if you knew someone was going to take what you said the wrong way, why not clarify from the start?

I knew there was a possibility. I just was a lazy bastard since that would be my fourth fix to that particular post.

And you heard me, go fire up Planescape: Torment!

Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 27, 2006, 01:00:39 am
It's a similar story with Treasure. They're still making games that were long ago consigned to the scrapheap by popular gaming culture, but still command a strong cult following and some of the highest prices on eBay.
I don't recall Treasure ever rehashing the same concept more than twice. I didn't even know they were considered bad by "popular gaming culture", just unknown. I loved the outstanding Gunstar Heroes, Mischief Makers and Ikaruga before I realized they were made by the same company. They've had their bad games too, but I don't see how you can compare a company that creates wildly diverse games to the FF series.

You missed the point. Treasure were making Shoot 'Em' Ups and platformers when the 3D game fever was at it's height with the Playstation, when everything trendy was 3D. They were working hard on classic games that eventually helped restore the respect for 2D games and dieing genres outside of Japan. They were keeping alive traditional genres in traditional ways while adding their own unique twists. Square is doing exactly the same thing with the traditional Japanese RPG. If Square are rehashing the RPG then Treasure are rehashing the shoot'em'up with Ikaruga by keeping the essential formula the same.

Also, you're trying to compare all of Treasure to just the Final Fantasy series. Remember, Square have made some legendary and truely inovative RPGs as well.


I'd also like to add that I much prefer Japanese RPGs to western (except WoW, of course). I don't believe freedom is always a good thing. True freedom to do what you like can often be bewildering, and makes the game seem unhelpful. Adventures in life are thrust upon you, you have to undertake them out of neccessity, and I believe that most console RPGs are created with this in mind. They don't have to be so linear, but up until now there has not been a better way to progress the plot when the gameplay is non-linear. I dislike the styling of many western RPGs also. Most are marketed to the D&D market, and are often styled and themed like the front of western fantasy novels. This has always been a turn-off to me, as many D&D games assume an existing interest and a basic grasp of D&D concepts.
I've never been a big fan of RPGs anyway, I've just had some time to play some key games. I prefer an hour spent playing through Final Fantasy with interesting plot, likable characters and random battles than Baulder's Gate with hack'n'slash, boring dialogue and identikit characters. But hey, that's just the way I feel. That doesn't make any of the games I like essentially better than the ones you like does it? They all come highly recommended, why complain?

Lastly, I don't care what any one person has to say what is an RPG and what isn't. Most games let me assume the role of a protagonist that finds their way into an extraordinary series of events. Grandia and Panzer Dragoon Saga let me move my character around an enemy. Vagrant Story lets me target specific parts of the body. Just because the Japanese RPGs don't follow the western model, it doesn't mean that they are not accomplished, complex, challenging or compelling. I'd wager there is an equivilant for every great game from the west to be found from Japan in any aspect you can name.


And you heard me, go fire up Planescape: Torment!

Hear me! Get yourself a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga!
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Фраеон on June 27, 2006, 01:27:58 am
Much like Vista, this conversation seems suffer from having circular dependencies. Ouch. (Excuse the geeky joke, there.)

My preference? Space sims. But generally, the genre doesn't matter. Platformer, RPG, FPS...it's all good.

And you heard me, go fire up Planescape: Torment!

Hear me! Get yourself a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga!

I command you to get yourself a copy of Radiant Silvergun, then.

Seriously speaking...The differences between Planescape: Torment and Panzer Dragoon Saga are that A) Torment isn't considered that rare and B) you can run Torment on almost any PC today (probably can run it on a Mac through an emulator, too). That other game would require me to get a whole new piece of hardware to run it. But hey, if you're willing to pay for a Saturn and a copy of that game and send it to Finland, I'll be more than willing to try it out.

...'Sides, if you love a good plot, Torment isn't a game you should be giving the miss on. It's one of the rare RPGs where saving the world doesn't even enter the equation. (and it still manages to have an epic feel...imagine that.)

I do have to admit that the first Baldur's Gate is just plain generic fantasy stuff, but Baldur's Gate II fleshes out the main cast a lot more (Jaheira is quite an interesting character, so is Viconia...Imoen comes off as just plain whiny), has an interesting plot AND is explorable. And when you get further, character positioning and tactics play a huge role in battle. BG (and essentially any Infinity game) is basically turn-based anyway, with the only difference being that instead of pausing the game automatically, it expects you to do the pausing.

Quote
I don't believe freedom is always a good thing. True freedom to do what you like can often be bewildering, and makes the game seem unhelpful.

"You shouldn't give the players a gun, since there's always the chance that they'll shoot themselves in the face."

This is where I disagree. But then again, I'm used to stuff like this since the earliest memories I have, are from Frontier: Elite II and Ultima VI. It doesn't get much more non-linear than what Frontier is. Now I have to resume sending death threats to Braben so that he'll wisen up and make Elite IV. Thanks a lot! :(

Quote
Most games let me assume the role of a protagonist that finds their way into an extraordinary series of events.

Yes, but that can be said about...well, any platformer, FPS and adventure game too. Are those RPGs, then? Personally, I don't think that just because a game has strength and wisdom stats, it should be called an RPG. Those stats never were the point of an RPG.

Quote
Just because the Japanese RPGs don't follow the western model, it doesn't mean that they are not accomplished, complex, challenging or compelling.

You list RPGs that have one of the elements I've listed, but can you list one that has all of them at once? I haven't played one myself, at least.

But personally, when I play an RPG, I expect a good plot, a capability to explore places, a capability to do quests in several different ways and good characters.  Even Oblivion fails to fulfill these requirements, as I recall 95% of the quests were done by bashing someone with a bowlful of hurt. I like to be talky-talky. None of the characters are all that memorable either. And...it's high fantasy, a setting that doesn't exactly interest me. Futuristic stuff is where it's at. One reason more to mention Fallout.

I was going to compare the common Japanese RPG battle system with the autoaim that's put in console FPS games, but I know I would be lynched for such a comment. :P

Now where's the Japanese equivalent of Silent Storm? I'm...waiting...
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Chaosopher on June 27, 2006, 01:29:34 am
I also don't appreciate being told that I only like non-stop action and hack-hack-slash-slash paired with a shallow plot just because the Japanese way of battling in RPGs seriously rubs me the wrong way.

Who said that??
Not I.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Einkoro on June 27, 2006, 09:20:18 am
...
My preference? Space sims.
...

<3 <3 <3

I wish the genre wasn't basically dead. With only the X series still going (in a horrid sorta sucking leading to an implotion into a blackhole) and rumours of a new Elite and the rare other new game that usually falls flat I am very sad.  :'(

...
But personally, when I play an RPG, I expect a good plot, a capability to explore places, a capability to do quests in several different ways and good characters.  Even Oblivion fails to fulfill these requirements, as I recall 95% of the quests were done by bashing someone with a bowlful of hurt. I like to be talky-talky. None of the characters are all that memorable either. And...it's high fantasy, a setting that doesn't exactly interest me. Futuristic stuff is where it's at. One reason more to mention Fallout.

I was going to compare the common Japanese RPG battle system with the autoaim that's put in console FPS games, but I know I would be lynched for such a comment. :P

Now where's the Japanese equivalent of Silent Storm? I'm...waiting...

That is more or less how I feel about RPGs. Sadly I missed Fallout and Planescape somehow. I torrented them last year but one of the two suffered data corruption and the other would refuse to install on XP.  :'(
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on June 27, 2006, 01:00:20 pm
And you heard me, go fire up Planescape: Torment!

Hear me! Get yourself a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga!

I command you to get yourself a copy of Radiant Silvergun, then.


Oooh! You walked straight into that one XD
I've had a copy of Radiant Silvergun for a while, I've just been unable to play because of the lack of people willing to switch Saturns today. Back in the day, you could find people who would add switches for region selection and 50/60Hz, but the most I can find now are the converter carts. Shame.

As I said, I'm not a great RPG player, and I won't be able to tell compare all the RPGs under the sun. There are people who will be able to tell you, and there are many highly regarded RPGs from Japan. Many have extremely complex plots, battle systems and impressive music and visuals, and I'll be willing to bet you'll find what you're looking for is out there if you look. Final Fantasy is barely an RPG, but it still has the same hallmarks that can be found in more complex games. I'm just trying to say there are more complex games from Japan out there, and you'll find something you like if yout ry :-)
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on June 27, 2006, 06:28:36 pm
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I torrented them last year but one of the two suffered data corruption and the other would refuse to install on XP.
I've played both of them on XP with no problems =/
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Torp v2.0 on July 23, 2006, 11:57:46 am
I'm going to cast a thread ressurection and go all the way back to the original topic of girl gamers.

I treat girl gamers differently than I treat boy gamers. Not because they're girl gamers, but because they're girls. The boy-girl social interaction has differences from the boy-boy (or girl-girl) social interaction. Now, I'm not doing the entire "OMG she's a GIRL go easy on her" thingy, but if I find her attractive (and she's not involved with a friend), I will often end up with a flirting tone between her and me. This is not something that usually happens between me and other guys. I'm not exactly hitting on her, it's just that I like to flirt (you can't deny the fun of playful social interaction, with some sexual undetones, with a person you find attractive), and I find that tone to be a comfortable and nice one (also, having a flirting tone require that both sides do so, so I don't actually bother them).

And I don't see this imaginary construct that says that when you're doing a hobby, you cannot be flirting. Truth is that most people meet boyfriends and girlfriends not when they're expressively out on town trying to get laid, but through random meetings with people with a shared interest. And you meet people you share interests with where, you say? Exactly.

Of course, with the stereotypical geek being the asocial person that he is, an attempt at flirting will just feel awkward and alienating to the target. They mean good (well, as good as they can when their goal is to get into your pants). Just smile and back away sloowly.

In closing, somebody who finds you attractive will treat you different than somebody who doesn't. It's a fact of social interaction. You cannot change this, I'm afraid, unless you want to somehow make yourself less attractive. The only difference between the geeks and the "normal guys" is that the former have less experience talking to a girl, and overdo things too much due to nervousness.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trias on July 23, 2006, 12:45:44 pm
That was what I was trying to say, in part at least, thanks Torp
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on July 23, 2006, 01:41:58 pm
Torp, while I applaud your honesty and the fact that you're not afraid to hide the fact that you enjoy a flirt, I'm not sure I would react very well to a flirt if I didn't already know you. I don't post on gaming forums, or play WoW for a bit of fun with the opposite sex. I'm not accusing you of doing this, but when strangers do flirt with me online the first thought that goes through my mind is that this guy thinks I'm looking for someone. Granted, there's a line to be drawn between newbies and veterans, but I always find that the guys that I call friends will always keep it to one flirt in a whole, meaningful conversation. Please don't assume that when a girl posts on a forum or plays on WoW (as in my case) that this is what she is looking for, and if she's not looking for it, she is somehow undesirable and considers herself ugly.
To extend your analogy, would you flirt with any girl on a night out, regardless of whether she had a partner or not? Would you introduce sexual undertones into a conversation with every girl you talked to on that night? Would you flirt with a girl working behind the counter at Gamestation or Game? Not every girl is looking for this kind of attention.

Of course you can't hide physical attraction, but a really nice guy will always treat a girl with respect, and will only offer a flirt if it is wanted. Please don't assume that just because that girls, or girl gamers that don't want a flirt are unnatractive. Girls gamers, like guys, are looking for a good game, not neccessarily a flirt.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Torp v2.0 on July 23, 2006, 02:45:53 pm
I don't assume that at all, and I should probably be a bit clearer.

First of all, no, I don't hit on every girl I meet. But flirting comes quite naturally for me, it's something I enjoy doing. Now, I'm not talking full-on hitting on girl flirting, generally it's just light teasing and stuff inside whatever conversation we hold, that in my opinion enhances the interaction and makes it all more fun. But as I also said, flirting is a two-way thing. It's no fun if the other person does not respond well to it, and if that is the case, I drop it. It should probably also be noted that by doing this, I am not neccecarily trying to covertly say "hey, let's fuck". Flirting is fun in itself, and I've several times ended up with flirty tones with girls I haven't had the slightest plans of taking to bed.

Furthermore, I don't usually flirt online. There have been exceptions, but mostly, my post was about real-world, actual contact, like at a LAN. When I play a game online, I usually play, and don't chat much (except when I'm playing round-based games and am in "constantly dead mode", or play with friends, in which case we'll usually have voice chat).

Quote
To extend your analogy, would you flirt with any girl on a night out, regardless of whether she had a partner or not? Would you introduce sexual undertones into a conversation with every girl you talked to on that night? Would you flirt with a girl working behind the counter at Gamestation or Game? Not every girl is looking for this kind of attention

Yes, I've flirted with several girls who are involved with someone else. Girls involved with friends are quite off-limit (though I do hold to the belief that an innocent, friendly yet slightly flirting tone is, in fact, innocent), but the girls of people I don't know? Quite often, actually. I do not introduce sexual undertones into conversations with every girl I talk to, only those I seem to hit it off well with (or, well, it's possibly more correct to say that I do not pursue sexual undertones unless she seems responsive to them). And yes, I would flirt with a girl behind a counter at a store, if I for some reason ended up talking to her for more than the couple of seconds I would usually use at the counter. If, again, she seemed responsive to it. Which is a matter of my intuition and the girls reaction to me (primarily body language).

If I don't worry about it, and don't actually conciously try to gauge whether or not she's responsive/interested, I am usually right. And I'm reasonably sure that if a girl responds well, she's not actually against flirting with me.

As you can see, the girls who specifically are not looking for that kind of attention won't get it from me anyways. It's their loss, really :-)

And my flirting is actually not really a concious effort. As I said, it comes naturally, so much that I need to conciously repress it if I don't want to do it with a girl that's responsive (given, of course, that I'm in a flirty mood myself. I'm not always interested in flirting, despite what the above may suggest).
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on July 23, 2006, 03:22:41 pm
As you can see, the girls who specifically are not looking for that kind of attention won't get it from me anyways. It's their loss, really :-)

This is the point that I was trying to address. If a girl doesn't respond to flirts, you don't need to assume she's "out of bounds" or not any fun, she's just not looking for that kind of attention. In my case, it would be a message from me to say that I'd prefer to talk Sega Saturn or N64 rather than flirting.
I'd like to invite you to take a look at that statement from a girl's point of view. Do you think she'd be impressed if she was aware that you thought it was her loss if she didn't want to flirt? I know it's all meant in good humour, but I'd really hate to be thought of like that.

Speaking for myself, I'd much rather talk gaming with you if you were a stranger at a LAN party. I wouldn't want to think that you thought that of me because I didn't respond to your flirts.

Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Torp v2.0 on July 23, 2006, 03:54:29 pm
You're misunderstanding me a bit again (probably because I'm not clear here). I have no problems talking to a girl without flirting, if she doesn't seem to be interested in it. I know girls that can be lots of fun without such undertones.

As for the "it's their loss, really", what I should have said was probably more along the lines of "it's not my loss". There are plenty of girls out there, some quite open to flirting, and if I meet one who's not, that's no problem. If I don't find them interesting or fun enough, I will simply drift away and focus my attention towards somebody else. And if they did find me interesting, if they wanted to have my attention and talk to me, then losing my interest was their loss. If they didn't, well, we were both better off not talking to each other. If I find them interesting and fun enough despite the lack of flirting, then nobody lost anything.

And just to fill a potential hole here: What I just said goes for guys as well. If I meet a guy I don't find interesting, I'm not going to sit and talk with him, if there's something better to do. I don't differentiate between guys and girls like that. And I don't find a girl less fun if there's no flirting, I find her more fun if there is. So if all other things are equal, between a boy and two girls, one of whom is flirty, I will find the girl who's not flirty and the boy just as interesting, but the flirty one more interesting than both.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on July 23, 2006, 09:35:03 pm
I think what you're trying to say is that you're looking for a lively personality, a girl who will respond in the same way that you enjoy interacting with girls. I enjoy a girl has has a bit of a sharp personality, I think that's what I've always seen in SpiderChii. I just can't enjoy a girl who was purely flirty though, she must have a mind of her own to back it up and have a passionate interest and be willing to talk about it. If that happens to be gaming or anything I'm into as well, I think she has exactly what I look for.
I can't stand passive characters, they must be active and intelligent, brilliant, bold and colourful. I think all my friends match this description.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Torp v2.0 on July 24, 2006, 04:47:43 pm
Well, yes, you're quite point on there, when we're talking about what I look for in women. I did stress several times that I was talking about a flirty tone, which includes anything from a completely on-topic discussion with a bit of eye contact to teasing off-topic comments to full-out heavy flirting of the kind that completely distracts me (and probably the people around me as well) from what I'm doing. The latter only works in smaller amounts.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on July 24, 2006, 05:37:25 pm
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a bit of eye contact
I must have missed something. I always thought looking your conversational partner in the eye was the polite thing to do, not that it meant you wanted to bang them.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Spiff on July 25, 2006, 02:51:02 am
I can't stand passive characters, they must be active and intelligent, brilliant, bold and colourful. I think all my friends match this description.
Guess we can't be friends. Then again most people dislike or ignore those who are shy.

As for flirting, I always treat girls friendily, though that may be because I always assume that everyone's taken. :P If I'm ever interested in someone, physical love is the last thing on my mind, which also probably turns off most people out there.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: PrescriptiveBarony on July 25, 2006, 10:07:55 am
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a bit of eye contact
I must have missed something. I always thought looking your conversational partner in the eye was the polite thing to do, not that it meant you wanted to bang them.

Haven't you ever wondered why you ened up having so much confused sex with librarians tell you to be quiet, motorcyclists asking for directions, and little girls looking for daddy?
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Trezker on July 25, 2006, 12:31:02 pm
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a bit of eye contact
I must have missed something. I always thought looking your conversational partner in the eye was the polite thing to do, not that it meant you wanted to bang them.
People that keep eye contact constantly creep me out. I know one guy who looks straight at my eyes... *shiver* The best way to get a little comfort is to stare back, but it doesn't help much.

Staring someone in the eyes is the best way to convince them you're right, it totally breaks down the self confidence of your victim.
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Kasumi-Astra on July 25, 2006, 01:24:55 pm
I can't stand passive characters, they must be active and intelligent, brilliant, bold and colourful. I think all my friends match this description.
Guess we can't be friends. Then again most people dislike or ignore those who are shy.

As for flirting, I always treat girls friendily, though that may be because I always assume that everyone's taken. :P If I'm ever interested in someone, physical love is the last thing on my mind, which also probably turns off most people out there.

Maybe I was being a bit hard that day. I aspire to be a bold character, but I do like passive characters just as much sometimes. Looking back, there are a few of my friends that fit this description. I can't really remember what made me say that...
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: L'homme magique on July 25, 2006, 04:46:03 pm
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Haven't you ever wondered why you ened up having so much confused sex with librarians tell you to be quiet, motorcyclists asking for directions, and little girls looking for daddy?
Explains lots =/

@Trezker: I don't stare them down...
Title: Re: More girl gamer rubbish...
Post by: Torp v2.0 on July 25, 2006, 05:29:18 pm
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a bit of eye contact
I must have missed something. I always thought looking your conversational partner in the eye was the polite thing to do, not that it meant you wanted to bang them.

Er, yes, it depends on the kind of eye contact. In the case above, I was talking about flirtatious eye contact. It's fun and nice because it doesn't distract much from whatever's being done (say, if you're in company with several others), and it does not require physical proximity. It's all about body language.

If you know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about. Self-referentially enough.

Eye contact is important in any social situation. It keeps focus in conversations, it helps decide "rank". Using eye contact and not flickering around in your social interactions will make you seem more assertive, and improve your chances of getting your will through.