The Official Machinae Supremacy Forum

The Band => Band Discussion => Topic started by: gaijin on December 12, 2010, 02:39:47 am

Title: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: gaijin on December 12, 2010, 02:39:47 am
I've translated a piece written by Robert, so that all you non-Swedish-speakers can take part in it. Also, I think I'll enjoy the discussions it'll lead to. If there are any obvious spelling errors, weirdly shaped grammar or something akin to it.. it belongs to me, not Robert. Also, gaz, if you feel I've missed something in my translation, feel free to correct it.

Here goes:

"Go back to bed, your government is in control.   

Imagine coming home from work or school, turning on your laptop. A forum you visit on a regular basis can't load. Page is not responding. According to a friend on World Of Warcraft who live in a neighboring country, the site is working fine. The problem seems to be yours.

You can't let it go. After further investigation you finally realize that the government in your country has decided to censor that particular site due to the content being politically sensitive.

What the hell is going on? Don't we live in a democracy?

That's how many reacted in Thailand in 2005. One year later tanks were rolling down the streets of the capitol; the puzzle suddenly started to make sense.

Few societies change entirely in a day. Change comes gradually and can therefor be hard to react to in time. But when should you react? If you were trapped in a airtight container that started to fill up with water, would you react at once or would you wait until the liquid enters your lungs?

The example is extreme, but to my mind it's not incorrect.

I think we collectively underestimate the seriousness in what happens when the barriers that protect the individuals freedom and integrity are deconstructed in the name of crime fighting. Most of the initiatives from governments around the world to catch terrorists during the last 10 years haven't caught a single one - and several of them have probably generated more than a few new ones. The reason being that those who have something to hide knows how to do that. The politicians who approve these countermeasures probably don't understand that, but those who suggest them most certainly do.

The only reason I can think of is that they have another purpose with them.

Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to worry about. Is this true? Yes, it is. In the short run. Problems do not really start to form for real until the surveillance is in place and the definition of what's OK starts to change. Imagine this: We ban Nazis from meeting in a public place, because their political views often lead to hate crimes. I don't think many ordinary people would object to that law passing. But what's the next step? Ban communists? And why not the left wing party youth groups? I mean, they do call each other "comrades" in their meetings.

The point being: Where do we draw the line? And who gets to decide?

If our access to information is limited we should see this as a serious warning. Why? Because it means that someone is trying to control how we think by controlling what we know. People who lack choices will blindly follow the road presented to them. Why do you think that fundamentalist Christians in the US  educate their children themselves in the sanctity of their own homes? They do not want them exposed to a world full of seductive ideas that chafe against their medieval view of the world.

PR is one thing. To try to influence media to your advantage is an eternal game for corporations and politicians alike, and you sort of understand why they have to do this. But when you start restricting physical access to information, you limit peoples ability to read up and make informed decisions. This cannot be seen as anything else than an attack against the democratic form of government.

That countries like China and Iran filter the Internet might not be too surprising. These countries have a long road ahead of them before their leaders stop fearing "ideas" being planted into their citizens through the culture of free information. And that gets proven by the Chinese who don't seem to care much about their oppressed situation now that the economy has turned to the right track. Being wealthy is obviously more important than being democratic. So be it.

But there are democratic countries who have started censoring the worldwide web under the cover of protecting people from information they "shouldn't have". England and Australia are two good examples. I get a queasy feeling in my stomach when I think about these countries who we in many ways compare and equate ourselves to are engaged in such drastic ways of information control.

We do it in Sweden and Denmark too, but according to ONI (OpenNet Initiative - an organization dedicated to investigate and debunk those who engage in things like filtration of the Internet) we are in line with what our governments claim the purpose is, i.e hindering the proliferation of child pornography and other doubtlessly illegal content.

So, we aren't there yet. But we are building a society of surveillance in Sweden too. Slowly but surely the infrastructure for gathering and storing of data about who we are and what we do is being built. People who worry about a faceless government reading their e-mails and listening to their conversations - even if they don't have anything to hide - can neither talk or think freely.

And if we can't speak or think freely, we aren't living in a democracy - no matter if we can vote or not.

// Robert Stjärnström"




.. there, go, run, talk, discuss!

Edit: Fixed grammar.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: dezo on December 12, 2010, 03:54:00 am
From a tech's PoV, and ofc I realize that my PoV is biased by the fact that Gaz is one of my best friends, the internet as it looks today is easily corruptible. TCP/IP with different may be routed around the web according to private, corporate interests as well as due to pressure from governments. The worst thing is that shit can change without you even knowing it. It's like you're standing in the box and you have a hunch that water may or may not enter your lungs but you can't be sure because it's out of your control.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Hadou on December 12, 2010, 10:52:45 am
This was epic reading. Robert, I agree.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Banshee on December 12, 2010, 11:45:55 am
(it's funny, that nazi's are banned almost everywhere, but  communists, who killed as much people (if not lot more) are okay... even in countries they were killing)

other than that... i pretty much agree, it made me pretty worried, when i found that some providers block pages here, along with letter of some german about child porn industry, which says, that this kind of fight is worthless

- though, i feel that the pamphlet is little manipulative - well, i feel that in every political thing out there :-D
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: evilcandybag on December 12, 2010, 01:26:26 pm
Even though people may not agree with everything written here (though I certainly do), it is important to reflect on these things, since things ARE changing, and you need to know how these changes will affect you.

Even some conservatives in the US are reacting to these changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDp1izlMQT0 (thanks Harvey for that link).
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Ziza on December 12, 2010, 01:30:54 pm
"Go back to bed, your government is in control.   

Imagine coming home from work or school, turning on your laptop. A forum you visit on a regular basis can't load. Page is not responding. According to a friend on World Of Warcraft who live in a neighboring country, the site is working fine. The problem seems to be yours.

You can't let it go. After further investigation you finally realize that the government in your country has decided to censor that particular site due to the content being politically sensitive.

This is something that REALLY DOES piss off. Even if it (for now) doesn't concern me - because I know that it occurs, not only in "not-exactly-normal" countries like China or Korea, but also in "totally-normal-democratic" countries, like those mentioned by you.

What the hell is going on? Don't we live in a democracy?

That's how many reacted in Thailand in 2005. One year later tanks were rolling down the streets of the capitol; the puzzle suddenly started to make sense.

Few societies change entirely in a day. Change comes gradually and can therefor be hard to react to in time. But when should you react? If you were trapped in a airtight container that started to fill up with water, would you react at once or would you wait until the liquid enters your lungs?

The example is extreme, but to my mind it's not incorrect.

The question now is not only WHEN to react - but also HOW to react? How can we, little, ordinary people, react to something like this? Most people don't even see nor understand the problem. Others are aware - but the awareness alone won't do you any good. And even if those people who are aware of the problem gather up, even if there are many of them - what will it change? It's still close to nothing compared to the blind masses that do not care. Show them the truth? Make them aware? That would only make you a conspiracy theories supporter, which nowadays means you are nuts.
So, want to fight the government? Still... how? Right now, they are very close to the point at which they can do absolutely anything they like under the soft cover of "crime fighting" and "democracy". You won't make the mentioned masses take to the streets along with you as their reaction "treshold" will make them "aware" only once the line is crossed way too far. And yet, even with millions of people... can we still oppose the government? They will apologize and unblock some information to make everyone content, at best. At worst, we will be greeted with tanks.
So what can be done, except for raiding some sites together with 4chan and spreading the word? Usually I feel like there is not much we can do about how the discussed tendency is growing and therefore find myself aware, yet passive.

I think we collectively underestimate the seriousness in what happens when the barriers that protect the individuals freedom and integrity are deconstructed in the name of crime fighting. Most of the initiatives from governments around the world to catch terrorists during the last 10 years haven't caught a single one - and several of them have probably generated more than a few new ones. The reason being that those who have something to hide knows how to do that. The politicians who approve these countermeasures probably don't understand that, but those who suggest them most certainly do.

The only reason I can think of is that they have another purpose with them.

Most of us know it. What is more, most of the people I know, no matter who they are, see it. Still, no one ever does anything more than realizing the problem. It seems as though "being aware of being deceived" has become in vogue, but nothing more. After all, there is nothing dangerous about the ones in control plotting some long-term plans that would benefit them. Or at least that's how it would seem like. That's it - the second reason for passivity I can think of is a common belief that, no matter what happens "up there", it can't really seriously influence "my little individual life".

Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to worry about. Is this true? Yes, it is. In the short run. Problems do not really start to form for real until the surveillance is in place and the definition of what's OK starts to change. Imagine this: We ban Nazis from meeting in a public place, because their political views often lead to hate crimes. I don't think many ordinary people would object to that law passing. But what's the next step? Ban communists? And why not the left wing party youth groups? I mean, they do call each other "comrades" in their meetings.

The difference between nazism and communism is that the former is based on racism and pretty hardcore hatred in general, making it much more brutal and inacceptable than the latter, which, in fact, looks like a pretty good system... IN THEORY, that is.

The point being: Where do we draw the line? And who gets to decide?

I think such question (which is a REALLY good question, no doubts) could even make a separate thread.

If our access to information is limited we should see this as a serious warning. Why? Because it means that someone is trying to control how we think by controlling what we know. People who lack choices will blindly follow the road presented to them. Why do you think that fundamentalist Christians in the US  educate their children themselves in the sanctity of their own homes? They do not want them exposed to a world full of seductive ideas that chafe against their medieval view of the world.

PR is one thing. To try to influence media to your advantage is an eternal game for corporations and politicians alike, and you sort of understand why they have to do this. But when you start restricting physical access to information, you limit peoples ability to read up and make informed decisions. This cannot be seen as anything else than an attack against the democratic form of government.

The information nowadays is incredibly limited anyway, with mentioned media alone. Limiting other sources of information is another step that some time ago seemed absolutely impossible for me. But lookie here - they did it and made it look so justified, no one opposed.
It actually gives me creeps that someone is trying to limit information in order to control what we think. It gives me creeps that information alone is something that might prove dangerous for those in control when in possession of common people.
But it's always been like this - why is it that long ago even the Bible was on the List of Prohibited Books (many editions remained there till the end)? Was it too complicated for common people to understand or maybe someone was scared that too many people will see all the absurds?
If someone doesn't want us to think freely then there is DEFINITELY something very nasty about it.

On the other hand - consider the recent WikiLeaks incidents. They DID uncover some nasty things and incredible USA's lies (the Ballistic Missile Defense system in Poland case is outrageous -.- ) but on the other hand, those information alone were dangerous enough to tighten the current international situation even more. I DO think that publishing every possible information without any second thought may be dangerous - maybe even lead to war?

Staying on WikiLeaks topic... surprisingly, after all the documents had leaked out, it turned out Assange was sexually assaulting two women. Well, why haven't we heard about it earlier? Maybe leaking the recent info had turned him on so much he had to rape someone right away? And how comes that suddenly Postfinance suspends his bank account due to "false information regarding his place of residence during the account opening process"? Why didn't they discover it earlier?
This is the democracy we live in - the democracy in which you can freely destroy life of someone who uncovers inconvenient truth. "Enemy of the State"... now, live!
Getting back to "awareness and passivity" now... whole lot of people are protesting now and defending Assange. It shows a lot... but what does it change? Nothing. He will be found guilty and if he won't - he will probably have some "accident" soon :=]
And everyone who is shouting in his defence now... will soon forget.

(...)
And if we can't speak or think freely, we aren't living in a democracy - no matter if we can vote or not.

// Robert Stjärnström"

Actually... do you (everyone) really believe in the thing called "democracy"? Do you believe it to be a good, efficient system and most importantly - do you believe it to have ever existed and worked the way it was supposed to?
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crimzen on December 12, 2010, 07:32:36 pm
I want to like print this out and keep in on my bulletin board! So many great things in here. Of course not everyone might agree with it, but I can bet most people will. Robert FTW! I want to hear more thoughts from Robert!
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crazywater on December 14, 2010, 01:19:36 pm
http://wikileaks.machinaesupremacy.com/
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Valentine Revolution on December 16, 2010, 05:55:29 pm
So what do we do? We've seen that the large peaceful anti-Iraq war protests were useless, and we've seen that democracy is useless when parties can lie to the electorate with no accountability. Over here in the UK, students are protesting over increased tuition fees after a party that quite frankly heavily relies on the student and young people vote gets into power and then shits all over them. The protests get violent out of anger and desperation, the press cannot be relied upon to report these events fairly and all that happens is the police are thinking about using water cannons and more than one politician has suggested a ban on protesting to save money in these "hard times". And look at the Twitter joke trial, where a man's life is ruined over a flippant remark and the justice system just can't understand this technology in order to look at it properly.

The system we have is broken, all we can do is vote people in or out based on false promises. How many young people will vote next election? How many people old and young alike feel that they don't even have a party to vote for anymore. Left/right, red/blue, this labels are dated and useless to us now. We protest, we campaign, we write to our MPs and put up posters and scream at anyone who would listen but they are as powerless as me, and even a million people are powerless.

"You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide"? Maybe now, in this society my sexuality is more-or-less acceptable, but we don't know who will be in charge in the future. Laws like the violent pornography laws, copyright law and ideas like the sex offenders register criminalise ordinary people but it's not good media to stand up for the "freaks" and the "revolutionaries". Healthcare spending is driven by opinion instead of fact, people vote for right-wing parties because they fall for the nice front-faces and don't think that the same parties would segregate "undesirables" and people like me.

I apologise this hasn't really gone anywhere, still trying to figure things out.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crimzen on December 16, 2010, 09:49:21 pm
I agree with you. I dont even feel like voting when my vote doesnt even matter or count and in the end whoever wins just gets subject to: 'Well he was better than the last one' Does that really matter because they still didnt fix anything and they pretty much f*cked up regardless of your vote or support. Welcome to a world of sh*t
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: dezo on December 16, 2010, 11:26:58 pm
load the ion cannon!
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: The Bringer on December 17, 2010, 02:56:05 am
I dont like Dictators,
as a German guy i cant understand racism, but still i dont like every neighbor.
Doesnt matter if he/she is Italian, Greek, Turkish or German.
Am i a racist then?
While playing Civilization II i couldnt stand people demonstrating and a council
giving technology freely to other nations just to safe us from war.
Thats why i played as a fundamentalist. (its just a game)
Does that make me a hater of democracy
I like a democratic way,
but as mentioned before, some feel its not democratic enough anymore.

I live nearby Stuttgart, so some eventually heard of Stuttgart21.
This huge Project was planned long time ago.
At this early stage most people thought positive about it.
Nobody told them that it will be really expensive to build it
and that not only the "Deutsche Bahn" pay for it.
The whole Country will pay Mrd. of Euros for it.
Nobody told the People, now they cant back out of it.
It will be build. If people like or not.

Personally i consider myself not the "save money first" Kind of Guy.
But since knowing that Germany has debts of 1.600.000.000.000 Euros
I dont like the idea to spend money we dont have.

But to top that we Germans stand there as the Leader
of the Europian Fund Saver and Euro Saver.

I dont like to be a Oracle but if it goes on like this
the next World War is near. If it is the People having nothing
attacking people that have too much and dont want to share.
Or Terrorist getting hold of Nuclear Weapons and destroying
their evil Enemies in the name of their god.
Or Africans and Indiens raiding their northern Nations
for their wealth, Food and Water.

We will see or hopefully not, until then i try
to teach my daughter (9) some mathematics and grammar
and my son (5) how to behave himself by not hitting everyone
who tells him he is not getting this or that if not asking properly.

Peace Piet

PS: Do i really care if other People know when, what and how long im visiting which Pornsite.
 ??? ::) :o :-[
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: harvey danger on December 17, 2010, 07:32:14 am
Okay.

I understand where Gaz is coming from, but it seems like he's preaching to the choir here, non?
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Skell on December 17, 2010, 11:22:47 am
I dunno about you, but in my opinion the best you can do is just be a good person. There is enough shit in this world without you adding some more to it, and if you actually clean some of it then hey, it's even better!
If you raise your children well, you might actually 'improve' the next generation. If they raise their children well then we have more good people. And the more good people we have the better chance is that there will be competent and caring people in the government at least. Oh, and cutting their pays wouldn't be that bad too...

Well, call me naive but I think that's the best normal person can do.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Shalinar on December 25, 2010, 08:00:04 am
Quote
People who worry about a faceless government reading their e-mails and listening to their conversations - even if they don't have anything to hide - can neither talk or think freely.

This is the only part I disagree with. No matter how much a government censors, controls, and bans, they can never EVER take away a person's ability to think freely. Although we may not be able to speak our minds, our freedom of thought is something that cannot be taken away. It is the only true freedom we can always have.

"You can take the one thing I have left, beat me to the ground and take my breath, but you can't take who I am."
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on January 16, 2011, 09:58:43 pm
I was actually thinking of making a topic on this sometime soon and then I saw this thread. Great stuff, I would like to further add to that but I'm not sure how far I'm allowed to go into this topic on the forum. I guess I'll just wing it and if it seems like the topic is too touchy or shouldn't be here a mod should just edit my post please.

Okay where to begin... First of all I agree with 95% of what you're saying, and I assume at this point your main focus is what is going on in the USA. But I think to really understand what's happening in America and the rest of the world you have to look at the people behind the tyranny. Not many people know this but America was founded by a group of Freemasons looking to shake the world with these radical ideas of a modern democracy and make their place in history. This sounds perfectly fine except that there was a plethora of hidden agendas in place that basically set the course our country would take since day one. People like Sir Francis Bacon referred to it as "The New Atlantis" and believed it was America's destiny to lead the way to a New World Order, which oddly enough is written on the back of each dollar bill, as are a huge range of other Masonic symbols. I could go further into the topic but it would take all day, but to those who are interested I would check out Secret Mysteries of America's beginnings, a three part documentary that explains it much better than I could ever hope to.

With that being said, I believe the history of America has been one carefully designed plot after another. We've been using false flag policies for years. Lyndon Johnson admitted the Gulf of Tonkin incident was our forces shooting at our own ship. Our own government funded Hitler's rise to power. I'm not even going to get into the reason we're in Iraq right now. It makes perfect sense though. Every time the economy is in a slump or depression we can just go to war! The revenue from producing military goods is great and it gives them a chance to implement more and more socialist policies after every war, or even DURING in this case!

And it's only getting worse. The freedom of information act was supposed to be a huge step in getting declassified information and yet more often than not we find we still can't get the information, and when we finally do it's so long after the fact who knows how much was altered or removed in the process? It's scary to think that people are okay with not being able to access information that we are legally allowed to. It's even scarier to see how our constitutional rights are going out the window. When the government sees people using their constitutional rights they label them as radical and even a threat! It's against our constitution to decide government policies behind closed doors and yet we have the Bilderberg committee, the counsel of foreign relations, trilateral commission, etc. that do just that, and scarier yet that most people don't even know who they are or what they do! It's illegal yet they get away with it all the time and people don't think twice about it! That being said, political parties are also a farce. Just another way to make Americans think they are getting involved and making a difference when they vote, but what people don't realize is they all work in the same interest. Government for Wall Street, by Wall Street. Just look at Obama's main supporter, Henry Kissinger. He's a corrupt Wall Street executive who openly embraces socialism and global government. And yet we let these people run our country??? Regardless of what party is in office the outcome will always be the same. The ONE good candidate we had (Ron Paul) was made out to be a terrorist on live TV and they hardly gave him any airtime. Pathetic.

And now we have all these things in the works, RFID chips, eye scanners in the streets of Mexico to track ex-criminals, Internet ID's, the collapse of the dollar by Banks to move away from the paper money system and bankrupt the common people. It's all by design, but it's scary how little known these things are and how successful their plans to distract the average Joe are. Even a lot of people who do get informed can't actually believe it, or just kind of shrug it off. They think "our government isn't capable of that" or something to that extent. Songs like Edge and Pearl, Force Feedback, Truth of Tomorrow, Reanimator, Follower, and more cover this really well! The message being, if you're going to sit back and do nothing about it then you almost deserve what is coming in the future. I try not to be so cruel as a lot of people go their whole lives thinking one way and then when they learn about something like this they usually have a hard time accepting it or just think it's crazy talk. But the sad reality is that it's what is supposed to happen and the plan is working REALLY well.

Anyway, I feel more comfortable discussing this here than on other forums because I know Robert's views on these things and I know everyone here can discuss this kind of thing in a respectful and mature manner :) I'm perfectly fine discussing the issue further for those who want to, and if someone doesn't agree with what I've said I'd like to hear their points since that is part of learning and understanding better.

Also, hello again fellow forumites ^^
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Shalinar on January 25, 2011, 08:51:16 am
"The freedom of information act was supposed to be a huge step in getting declassified information and yet more often than not we find we still can't get the information, and when we finally do it's so long after the fact who knows how much was altered or removed in the process?"

Lol. I wrote a paper this semester on the supposed "Freedom of Information Act". It's kind of a joke, really. People thought that it was supposed to be their way to access any confidential government secrets and find out what was really going on in the government they elected, but instead it basically just allows access to anything not classified. And recently, Obama changed the FOIA so that information, when requested, can be classified on the spot, making it thereby unattainable.

My initial reaction: WHAT THE CRAP?!?!? So any information that the government does not want made public, they can instantly classify it to make it protected from the FOIA. Wow. There's freedom of information for ya.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on January 25, 2011, 09:47:21 am
Amen brother.

I hadn't heard about Obama being able to classify information on the spot, thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crimzen on January 25, 2011, 10:17:34 am
A View From The End of The World... kinda wouldnt mind just factioning everything out having some disorder. Idk maybe Im just insane but whatever happens I wont go down without a fight. There will be a rebellion against governments. The people will have their say and break free one day.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Zortel on January 25, 2011, 04:00:01 pm
I've been spending the afternoon attempting to find news stories on protests held yesterday in the UK regarding disability and changes to the social security system that could threaten a lot of people registered as disabled. Hardly any of the major news sites are covering it, and of course on the rolling news stations it's just the same few stories ad revolvum.

Maybe if they'd have started rioting the news stations would take notice. Everyone knows peaceful demonstrations don't draw in the views like civil disorder.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Shalinar on January 25, 2011, 08:25:23 pm
I've been spending the afternoon attempting to find news stories on protests held yesterday in the UK regarding disability and changes to the social security system that could threaten a lot of people registered as disabled. Hardly any of the major news sites are covering it, and of course on the rolling news stations it's just the same few stories ad revolvum.

Maybe if they'd have started rioting the news stations would take notice. Everyone knows peaceful demonstrations don't draw in the views like civil disorder.

Also, you realize that BBC is run by the government, right? So there's reason for the lack of coverage right there...
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crazywater on January 25, 2011, 09:20:53 pm
Maybe if they'd have started rioting the news stations would take notice. Everyone knows peaceful demonstrations don't draw in the views like civil disorder.
I don't agree. Once you start throwing stones, people see you as the usual extremist idiot. They might notice you but they will not support your cause.

I heard that undercover agents in more than one case started throwing stones so that the police could stop the demonstration.

My hope for the moment is that through leaking sites the cost of doing evil will once become too high to maintain and that people will get more and more informed over time. :)

@cloudstrifex I would like to know what conspiracy theories you believe in.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on January 25, 2011, 10:54:22 pm
Maybe if they'd have started rioting the news stations would take notice. Everyone knows peaceful demonstrations don't draw in the views like civil disorder.
I don't agree. Once you start throwing stones, people see you as the usual extremist idiot. They might notice you but they will not support your cause.

I heard that undercover agents in more than one case started throwing stones so that the police could stop the demonstration.

My hope for the moment is that through leaking sites the cost of doing evil will once become too high to maintain and that people will get more and more informed over time. :)

@cloudstrifex I would like to know what conspiracy theories you believe in.

I've heard that about undercover agents as well, both domestically (in what were supposed to be peaceful protests), as well as posing as Muslim extremists in anti-American videos to get more support for the war.

I have no problem sharing my views, would you like to do it in PM or in the thread? I'm perfectly fine doing it in the thread as long as I don't get the band in trouble or start any flame wars.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crazywater on January 26, 2011, 01:32:10 pm
I'm perfectly fine doing it in the thread as long as I don't get the band in trouble or start any flame wars.
Well... me too ;)
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Moheeheeko on January 28, 2011, 06:44:25 am
Shit just got Real

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/27/egypt-situation-gets-worse-people-reporting-internet-and-sms-shutdown/
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Member on January 28, 2011, 06:10:29 pm
Shit just got Real

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/27/egypt-situation-gets-worse-people-reporting-internet-and-sms-shutdown/
They just thought that they can import revolution from Tunesia, but the goverment is far stronger in Egypt. It would be interesting if in this game the islamic were the hero side.
And my country's prime minister, the so called Victor Orban just visited Hosni Mubarak before the ruckus. They are so alike. :/
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on January 28, 2011, 08:11:54 pm
I'm perfectly fine doing it in the thread as long as I don't get the band in trouble or start any flame wars.
Well... me too ;)

Sorry crazywater I didn't meant to ignore you I've just been busy with work and such. I'll try to give you a well written response by tomorrow, I'm just too damn lazy to do it right now xD
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on February 07, 2011, 08:32:01 pm
Okay Crazywater I'll stop being lazy now and post what I believe. I'll try not to make this too long <.<

For starters, as I said before I believe the U.S. was founded on freemasonry, which by many is considered to be a Satanic religion at its core. The symbols on a lot of D.C. architecture, the dollar bill, and the Great Seal of the U.S. are all masonic and to me the "In God We Trust" has a double meaning. The Christians who are brainwashed at school think it was our God loving founding fathers putting it in there for them because they truly believe in God and want the nation to prosper. On the other hand, I believe it was put there to give them that facade and keep them happy, but more importantly it was put there to honor the god of freemasonry. Although I am a Christian myself, it annoys me when other Christians believe our country was based on Christianity and don't really know the truth about the "founding fathers" or how much freemasonry has influenced our culture and principles.It's known for a fact that at least 15 presidents were Freemasons and probably a lot more than that.

With that being said, I think a lot of our reasons for going to war are a facade. I personally think the majority of the wars in the past 100 years were based on false flag policies, which is the act of creating an event that will give us a reason to go into other countries. For example, I've read multiple places that America actually helped fund Hitler's rise to power as a reason to go to war and get the economy out of a depression, which was probably engineered by Wall Street. President Lyndon Johnson openly admitted the Gulf of Tonkin incident was our troops firing on our own ship so we would have an excuse to start the war in Vietnam.

And then of course there's 9/11. I won't go into too much detail here but I'll just sum up the main things I believe. There were explosives in the towers, which Bush admitted to in his speech like a complete retard, after changing his story like 5 times. There was no plane that hit the pentagon. Building 7... that one speaks for itself. I personally think the planes that hit the buildings weren't even commercial airliners. I believe it was completely an inside job, but I've also heard things like we allowed it to happen because the Muslims wanted Bin Laden back or something so we let them do their thing while we turned a blind eye. The latter theory seems much less likely though. So we used false flag policies to set up a base in the Middle East and have a way to make sure we get our oil, and impose our principles of government on other people, and of course reap the benefits of military generated revenue.

Moving on, I believe officials from all nations are moving towards a new world order, where the RFID chip is going to be the standard for identification and using money. In fact you can read it on the back of the dollar bill, "Novus Ordo Seclorum." President Bush senior mentioned it in his speech, as well as a few other presidents. One of the main financial supporters for Obama's campaign, Henry Kissinger, is a well known socialist and new world order advocate. That's pretty scary to me. Then we have things like the Bilderberg group, which meets once a year to discuss the direction of the U.S. and the rest of the world without public knowledge or consent. There's also the Trilateral Committee and the Counsel of Foreign Relations. The American constitution is going out the window. I could go into this topic more but it would take way too long to get into everything.

Now for a topic I recently discussed with Robert on facebook. Vaccines to me are completely useless. They contain mercury and other heavy metals, which we KNOW are bad for you. You're putting a virus into your body that is supposed to be dead or unable to function, but how true that is only these big corporations know. People argue that a lot of diseases and other things are gone now and that we are living much longer. Well back then a lot of people were malnourished, and the living conditions were not always desirable. A lot of these viruses are man-made as well - look at the Virus Cancer Program from the 70s, where the government admitted to putting AIDS in hepatitis vaccines for homosexuals and in the smallpox vaccines for people in Africa. It disgusts me. There's also the claim that autism has gone up tremendously since we've started giving vaccines to children, as well as a slew of other diseases.

And lastly, I'll go into GMO foods. Companies like Monsanto have a patent on their GMO seeds that they sell to farmers, and the ones who refuse are often taken to court because these patented seeds magically find themselves in their farm. To me this is just pure evil. They are re-engineering our food supply to make it much less healthy for us. Not just them, but companies like Tyson and Oscar-Meyer in the meat industry. Cows are also fed corn now instead of grass and most of them are disease ridden nowadays because they aren't getting the proper diet, and yet they sell the meat to us? It's also becoming increasingly harder for farmers to grow organic crops, and stores that claim the food is organic actually still have things like pesticides in the food. I don't really have much time to keep going into the subject but I'll leave it at that.

I'm leaving a lot of things out here as I have to leave soon. Maybe I'll make another post soon talking about the AIDS cure, cancer cure, poisoned tap water, population control, RFID chip, etc. Hope this was satisfactory Crazywater :)
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Score_Under on February 13, 2011, 07:19:32 pm
There were explosives in the towers, which Bush admitted to in his speech like a complete retard[...]
Does anyone have source on this?
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on February 13, 2011, 09:04:28 pm
There were explosives in the towers, which Bush admitted to in his speech like a complete retard[...]
Does anyone have source on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USnxe7hxP4I&feature=related
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: evilcandybag on February 13, 2011, 09:54:25 pm
There were explosives in the towers, which Bush admitted to in his speech like a complete retard[...]
Does anyone have source on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USnxe7hxP4I&feature=related

Sounds to me that he simply said "explosives" instead of "explosions". Seriously, do you think they'd write him a speech like that if there was a conspiracy?
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on February 13, 2011, 10:19:07 pm
There were explosives in the towers, which Bush admitted to in his speech like a complete retard[...]
Does anyone have source on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USnxe7hxP4I&feature=related

Sounds to me that he simply said "explosives" instead of "explosions". Seriously, do you think they'd write him a speech like that if there was a conspiracy?

That's what I said as well. And yes there is a possibility; these people already know their plan is working so why should they care? That speech wasn't particularly aimed at 9/11, it just explains the tactics the party responsible for these kinds of events uses.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Casper on February 20, 2011, 06:12:05 pm
This is the only part I disagree with. No matter how much a government censors, controls, and bans, they can never EVER take away a person's ability to think freely. Although we may not be able to speak our minds, our freedom of thought is something that cannot be taken away. It is the only true freedom we can always have.


At the moment this bares some truth. But as technology advances and science continues to thrive (and it will), they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

With that being said, in the coming years oil will not be the most prized resource on our planet. It'll be information and how we can transport it safely and securely without compromise. It'll create a lucrative underground economy, no doubt, because where there is demand, there is always a supply.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: finaleclipse06 on February 27, 2011, 07:40:56 am
This is the only part I disagree with. No matter how much a government censors, controls, and bans, they can never EVER take away a person's ability to think freely. Although we may not be able to speak our minds, our freedom of thought is something that cannot be taken away. It is the only true freedom we can always have.


At the moment this bares some truth. But as technology advances and science continues to thrive (and it will), they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

With that being said, in the coming years oil will not be the most prized resource on our planet. It'll be information and how we can transport it safely and securely without compromise. It'll create a lucrative underground economy, no doubt, because where there is demand, there is always a supply.

Anti-depressants don't make you unnaturally happy. The way they work is based on the brain's chemistry. They raise the levels of norepinephrine and serotonin in the brain, which are low in depressed people. That being said, anti-depressants help to bring a person out of depression and back to a normal level of functioning.

The YouTube video that was linked to a few posts back seriously lacks context. I read quite a few of the comments on the video and there were a few that mentioned that the 37 second clip is actually referring to attempted attacks on the World Trade Center from several years before 2001. To be fair, not having seen the whole speech, I don't know how accurate those claims are. But without context, anything can be misleading. Is there a video of the entire speech?

Being an idealist, I guess my view isn't so glum as some of yours are. I do try to stay realistic though, but it's not always easy.  :P I'm not trying to offend anyone on here, so I apologize in advance if I do, but I think the whole New World Order/Freemason/Illuminati/etc. thing is way too overblown. Considering how many countries have vastly different religions, ideologies, and ways of thought from each other, and that a few of them seem to be directly opposed in their extremist forms (i.e. Christianity and Islam, democracy and dictatorship) and that several religions/philosophies are mutually exclusive (i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam) while several others are open to incorporation of other philosophies (i.e. Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Shinto) it seems rather far-fetched to assume that there is one very small group of people who is able to decide the fate of the billions of unlike-minded people on this planet.

Strictly speaking about American politics (because that's the only one I know anything about) I do think that money and power have far too much influence, and that should be checked. If I remember correctly, there are some checks on it, such as not allowing a certain type of donor to give an unlimited supply of money to a candidate, but they're not very effective. Something that I think should have been in place from the start is term limits for congressmen. Being in power for as long as many of America's congressmen have, that power starts to become ingrained in who they are, and it detracts from their purpose of making laws that benefit America as a whole. I also think that new congressmen shouldn't be allowed to have political, legal, or corporate backgrounds, because many people from those types of backgrounds who are able to run for congress have already had a taste of power. They should be well-educated, open-minded, have a good understanding of current events and how history has affected and determined them, and be dedicated to doing what is best for everyone and everything. The previous sentence was intended to cover the possibility that what may be best for America may not be what's best for other countries or the environment, because I don't really want to get into a discourse on all of that right now.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: harvey danger on February 28, 2011, 09:53:57 pm
This is the only part I disagree with. No matter how much a government censors, controls, and bans, they can never EVER take away a person's ability to think freely. Although we may not be able to speak our minds, our freedom of thought is something that cannot be taken away. It is the only true freedom we can always have.


At the moment this bares some truth. But as technology advances and science continues to thrive (and it will), they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

With that being said, in the coming years oil will not be the most prized resource on our planet. It'll be information and how we can transport it safely and securely without compromise. It'll create a lucrative underground economy, no doubt, because where there is demand, there is always a supply.

Anti-depressants don't make you unnaturally happy. The way they work is based on the brain's chemistry. They raise the levels of norepinephrine and serotonin in the brain, which are low in depressed people. That being said, anti-depressants help to bring a person out of depression and back to a normal level of functioning.

Thank you for explaining this to him. Saying anti-depressants make a person "unnaturally happy" shows a severe ignorance of both depression and the drugs used to treat it.

I am not being "controlled" by the drug I am taking (which is currently the lowest possible dosage to effectively elevate my mood), and I am not some zombie that just floats through life on a cloud of oblivious contentedness. I have been restored to a normal level of function from six years of a severely debilitating problem with my brain chemistry and have regained the ability to actually live my life. It doesn't just stop me from "thinking bad things," which is an extremely simplistic way to put it; it gives me motivation to get out of bed before 2 P.M., to actually be social with other human beings, and to have a desire to do things outside of my room. It's cured my insomnia and helps me sleep better than I ever did without it. It has brought on a whole host of changes to my life that enable me to be me again. I have lived six years of my life being defined by my depression. I have gone through high school and college with my own personality constantly, barely out of reach, unable to make the connection that was needed to function correctly. Now I am finally happy.

Depression is a complicated mental-health problem and affects different people in wildly different ways. I cannot speak for everyone that has ever been depressed or ever will be. For me, however, who has tried every possible solution to depression that was not a drug, anti-depressants have been the solution to a long period of absolute misery and inability to function. To take such a presumptuous attitude, Lysander, is offensive to me, and frankly, puts you on the same level as Tom Cruise. Educate yo'self.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: gaijin on February 28, 2011, 10:41:36 pm
This is the only part I disagree with. No matter how much a government censors, controls, and bans, they can never EVER take away a person's ability to think freely. Although we may not be able to speak our minds, our freedom of thought is something that cannot be taken away. It is the only true freedom we can always have.


At the moment this bares some truth. But as technology advances and science continues to thrive (and it will), they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

With that being said, in the coming years oil will not be the most prized resource on our planet. It'll be information and how we can transport it safely and securely without compromise. It'll create a lucrative underground economy, no doubt, because where there is demand, there is always a supply.

Anti-depressants don't make you unnaturally happy. The way they work is based on the brain's chemistry. They raise the levels of norepinephrine and serotonin in the brain, which are low in depressed people. That being said, anti-depressants help to bring a person out of depression and back to a normal level of functioning.

Thank you for explaining this to him. Saying anti-depressants make a person "unnaturally happy" shows a severe ignorance of both depression and the drugs used to treat it.

I am not being "controlled" by the drug I am taking (which is currently the lowest possible dosage to effectively elevate my mood), and I am not some zombie that just floats through life on a cloud of oblivious contentedness. I have been restored to a normal level of function from six years of a severely debilitating problem with my brain chemistry and have regained the ability to actually live my life. It doesn't just stop me from "thinking bad things," which is an extremely simplistic way to put it; it gives me motivation to get out of bed before 2 P.M., to actually be social with other human beings, and to have a desire to do things outside of my room. It's cured my insomnia and helps me sleep better than I ever did without it. It has brought on a whole host of changes to my life that enable me to be me again. I have lived six years of my life being defined by my depression. I have gone through high school and college with my own personality constantly, barely out of reach, unable to make the connection that was needed to function correctly. Now I am finally happy.

Depression is a complicated mental-health problem and affects different people in wildly different ways. I cannot speak for everyone that has ever been depressed or ever will be. For me, however, who has tried every possible solution to depression that was not a drug, anti-depressants have been the solution to a long period of absolute misery and inability to function. To take such a presumptuous attitude, Lysander, is offensive to me, and frankly, puts you on the same level as Tom Cruise. Educate yo'self.

QFT, +1 karma and a free blowjob. Word, bitches.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Casper on March 01, 2011, 06:07:34 pm
Thank you for explaining this to him. Saying anti-depressants make a person "unnaturally happy" shows a severe ignorance of both depression and the drugs used to treat it.
blahblahblahiwasdepressednowimnotlolpeelz

Firstly, get fucked. I am not ignorant and the fact you even come to this assumption makes you more "ignorant" than anyone else contributing to this discussion.

Secondly, don't take it so seriously. I used it as an example, as to the progression in technologies used to control peoples thinking and how the government can use this to their advantage. That's why I gave a simplistic attitude towards it. You're depressed, fantastic, I know others who are, and I've seen first hand what these pills can do in extreme cases. So don't you dare try to adopt the holier than thou attitude to me, Harvey, because your personal vendetta is completely irrelevant to what I was trying to say. PM me and have a go at me if you want, would love to attempt a discussion with you out of this thread.

Anti depressants CHANGE a persons mindset, whether its by chemically screwing with their system or otherwise. They are a drug, right? Drugs induce certain emotional states. They do this by controlling, forcing their way forward. It isn't "normal" for someone who is depressed to be happy, so making them so BY THE AID OF AN EXTERNAL SUBSTANCE is  technically unnatural. So think about what the government can do if they put a bit of research into it. My point was that they can make pills that control how you think. It was NOT a dig against you.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/2GSKQbCHSqserwb9yT8EjRcto1_500.jpg)
On the flip side, have you met this guy? I think you may have a lot in common.

QFT, +1 karma and a free blowjob. Word, bitches.

Not bothered if this gets me banned (which, knowing your angst-ridden trigger finger, it probably will), but here's a request; if you have nothing productive to say could you just...shut up? Thanks, gajgjgijgijgin.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: harvey danger on March 01, 2011, 06:52:18 pm
Thank you for explaining this to him. Saying anti-depressants make a person "unnaturally happy" shows a severe ignorance of both depression and the drugs used to treat it.
blahblahblahiwasdepressednowimnotlolpeelz

Firstly, get fucked. I am not ignorant and the fact you even come to this assumption makes you more "ignorant" than anyone else contributing to this discussion.

Secondly, don't take it so seriously. I used it as an example, as to the progression in technologies used to control peoples thinking and how the government can use this to their advantage. That's why I gave a simplistic attitude towards it. You're depressed, fantastic, I know others who are, and I've seen first hand what these pills can do in extreme cases. So don't you dare try to adopt the holier than thou attitude to me, Harvey, because your personal vendetta is completely irrelevant to what I was trying to say. PM me and have a go at me if you want, would love to attempt a discussion with you out of this thread.

Anti depressants CHANGE a persons mindset, whether its by chemically screwing with their system or otherwise. They are a drug, right? Drugs induce certain emotional states. They do this by controlling, forcing their way forward. It isn't "normal" for someone who is depressed to be happy, so making them so BY THE AID OF AN EXTERNAL SUBSTANCE is  technically unnatural. So think about what the government can do if they put a bit of research into it. My point was that they can make pills that control how you think. It was NOT a dig against you.

I will take it seriously, because it is people saying things like what you said that cause so many problems for those with mental-health issues of all kinds. There is no reason to give a simplistic attitude towards it outside of lack of understanding, and using it as a pillar for an argument for how the big bad government can control us is even worse. FWIW, making the point (it's not an assumption when you give me evidence) that you are ignorant to the issue at hand is also not a "dig," and there is no "personal vendetta." The fact that you have seen what medication can do and you still write things like this is simply mind-boggling and tells me that you either aren't learning or refuse to learn in order to support your own bias, and at the very least have decided to throw what you have learned out the window in order to make a point. See: "pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy."

The thing you fail to understand is that although depression is NATURAL, it is not NORMAL. It's right there in the definitions of the words, broseph. The drugs used are indeed UNNATURAL, but it is to return people to a NORMAL state of function. See how it works?

Person X gets cancer. Well, cancer is certainly NATURAL in many cases, but it is not NORMAL, otherwise the majority of people would have it. Person X gets chemotherapy to remove the cancer, which is UNNATURAL, but in the long-term returns his body to a NORMAL state of function, that is, sans-cancer.

Regardless of the massive failure in your vocabulary, your point is superfluous because it supports nothing regarding "what the government can do." This could be true of any drug, and any food, and any water source. OH NOES FLUORIDE IS EVERYWHERE. Wild speculation does not an argument make, and once again, anti-depressants do not alter the brain enough or in the correct fashion to give anyone control over another person's mind or stop them from thinking dissenting political thoughts. They barely alter brain chemistry to allow it to do the brainy things it's supposed to do, nothing more, nothing less. Greater dosages have greater effects, same as any drug, different drugs affect different people in different ways, same as any drug, and they have side-effects, same as any drug. For them to do what you think they could do, they would have to be a completely different subset of drugs.

If you feel like talking more about junk like this go make a 1984 book club and stop polluting the forums.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Casper on March 01, 2011, 06:59:30 pm
The fact that you have seen what medication can do and you still write things like this is simply mind-boggling and tells me that you either aren't learning or refuse to learn in order to support your own bias

I'm not saying the treatments are bad, and you're completely blowing this out of proportion. And I have absolutely no idea where you're getting half these points from regarding my refusal to learn.

The drugs used are indeed UNNATURAL
Ergo, they make you UNNATURALLY HAPPY, broseph. Unnaturally as in they are doing something that you as human aren't doing on your own. We could spend all day arguing what is normal, why it's considered normal and the social stereotypes and all that bullshit.

Regardless of the massive failure in your vocabulary
Wat

your point is superfluous because it supports nothing regarding "what the government can do." This could be true of any drug, and any food, and any water source. OH NOES FLUORIDE IS EVERYWHERE.

EXACTLY. I'll say it again, what I said was an EXAMPLE. They could put shit like that in anything, you're right, and that was kinda what I was implying. Evidently your butthurt about depression saw past that and instead we've now derailed into something completely pointless.

 
anti-depressants do not alter the brain enough or in the correct fashion to give anyone control over another person's mind or stop them from thinking dissenting thoughts.
What the hell? I never said they did!
I'll try this once more. I used the concept of anti depressants as an example to show how they could MAKE DIFFERENT PILLS TO CONTROL HOW PEOPLE THINK. I did not once (nor did I intend to) imply that anti depressants turn people into mindless drones. I'm sorry if that's what you thought I meant, though, but I'm not that insensitive.

Go back to reading 1984.

Go back to being depressed? I don't know :P
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: harvey danger on March 01, 2011, 07:07:21 pm
Quote
they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

"Such things," being "devices or substances that controls you," and which are deemed "normal and a part of our everyday lives," are anti-depressants. That is the argument you made. The argument implies that anti-depressants are bad by virtue of their ability to "control" people and do "unnatural" things," and thus are prime for being used for government control, which is bad. Maybe it is not the one you intended, but it's the one you made. The main point that I was contending, though, was "pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy."

If it was just a misunderstanding then I'm happy to leave it at that.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Casper on March 01, 2011, 07:11:38 pm
Quote
they will eventually create a device or substance that controls you.
Such things are already in circulation and, thus, deemed normal and a part of our everyday lives. Look at anti-depressants; pills designed to stop you thinking bad things and instead be unnaturally happy.

"Such things," being "devices or substances that controls you," and which are deemed "normal and a part of our everyday lives," are anti-depressants. That is the argument you made. The argument implies that anti-depressants are bad by virtue of their ability to "control" people and do "unnatural" things," and thus are prime for being used for government control, which is bad. Maybe it is not the one you intended, but it's the one you made.

If it was just a misunderstanding then I'm happy to leave it at that.

What I meant was that there are already things that can alter your state of mind, which is what we both know they do (even if positively). My point was that if something like that can make it into mainstream consumption then who knows what could be made years from now? I didn't mean to say that anti depressants themselves are bad, but you can see how they do somewhat "control" someone in that it changes ones pattern of thoughts. So, no, I don't mean that those in particular are going to be used to turn people into government-worshipping zombies. It's hard to explain it, but that's not what I meant.

And yeah, maybe to most people that idea is absolutely absurd. But in all honesty we're not half as "free" as the government like us to believe we are. Political Correctness is a prime example of them forcing people to change the way they think and speak, albeit in a rather primitive form.

Quote
If you feel like talking more about junk like this go make a 1984 book club and stop polluting the forums.

Bit of an odd comment considering the OP said;

Quote
If our access to information is limited we should see this as a serious warning. Why? Because it means that someone is trying to control how we think by controlling what we know

And there are a plethora of ways they can control the way we think. Limiting the free flow of information is but one of them.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: gaijin on March 01, 2011, 10:28:56 pm
Ok, so.. this bickering stops right now. It was a misundertsanding, and thus the argument is ended.

And to make things a wee bit more clear, most anti-dep-meds don't add anything to the brain at all. They just block the reuptake of serotonin from the postsynapsis, which in turn will keep seorotonin levels from sinking too fast. But that is beside the point.


Behave, or begone.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: cloudstrifex on March 01, 2011, 11:00:10 pm
I'm just going to chime in here real quick. Antidepressants treat the symptoms of an illness, not the cause. You can take them all you want but the fact remains it's going to mess with your natural ability to produce serotonin and create a dependency on them. Niacin on the other hand, is completely natural and has been known to treat depression and anxiety. Also what you said about chemo is a horrible argument. People who get chemo usually end up with cancer again within a few years, and the only reason we use that form of treatment is because hospitals make so much money off of it. People who actually want to get cured go to Mexico, because it is illegal to get actual treatment in the U.S. due to the fact that we can't make any money off of it. That is why we don't sell vitamin B-17 in the U.S., because you can't patent a vitamin. As Gaijin said, the basic science behind the pills is simple enough, but it is only a temporary fix and creates a dependence on the drug. I'm glad they help you Harvey, but it would be extremely beneficial to see a nutritionist about this and try to take a less artificial approach, and maybe see a counselor (which you might already be doing, as I am) to figure out why you're depressed.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-09-13-prozac_x.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/may/13/socialcare.medicineandhealth

Also, finaleclipse I will reply to your post when I get a chance, but I have to go to work very shortly.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Crimzen on March 08, 2011, 07:05:08 am
RAWR government RAWR meds RAWR rage!! *laughs continues to new thread*
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: gaijin on March 10, 2011, 01:32:19 pm
Not bothered if this gets me banned (which, knowing your angst-ridden trigger finger, it probably will), but here's a request; if you have nothing productive to say could you just...shut up? Thanks, gajgjgijgijgin.

It'd be cool if you could follow your own advice, seeing as that would silence you permanently. ;P

And yeah, stop being a dick, or get thrown out, etc.etc. You know the drill.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Viherminttu on March 10, 2011, 01:45:20 pm
Antidepressants are a tool used to manage a disease. They don't make you "happy", they control chemical imbalances and "even" you out enough that you are in control and able to attack the cause of the problem with talk therapy and other tools, coping mechanisms and strategies. They're not suitable for everyone, and they should be used in conjunction with talk therapy.

I have a mental health condition that, amongst other things, has depression as part of the diagnostic criteria. Some of the older peeps here may remember that. I was on medication for years, and it helped soften the extreme highs and lows that made it impossible for me to focus on therapy. I then went through therapy, and am now off meds and have been for a year now. They didn't "control" me. In fact, they made it possible for me to control myself.

I've seen a lot of ignorance, aggression and downright bullshit in this thread. If you want your viewpoint to be respected and listened to, how about you talk like a civil human being instead of insulting everyone that is responding to you (HUGE props to Harvey, by the way, truly excellent posts in the face of aggression). If you have such a problem that you cannot conduct such a discussion without resorting to aggression and insults, maybe you're the one with the problem and maybe you should consider getting therapy. It is good stuff, and maybe you'll become someone people will actually ENJOY debating with.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Casper on March 11, 2011, 03:10:19 am
Antidepressants are a tool used to manage a disease. They don't make you "happy", they control chemical imbalances and "even" you out enough that you are in control and able to attack the cause of the problem with talk therapy and other tools, coping mechanisms and strategies. They're not suitable for everyone, and they should be used in conjunction with talk therapy.

I have a mental health condition that, amongst other things, has depression as part of the diagnostic criteria. Some of the older peeps here may remember that. I was on medication for years, and it helped soften the extreme highs and lows that made it impossible for me to focus on therapy. I then went through therapy, and am now off meds and have been for a year now. They didn't "control" me. In fact, they made it possible for me to control myself.

I've seen a lot of ignorance, aggression and downright bullshit in this thread. If you want your viewpoint to be respected and listened to, how about you talk like a civil human being instead of insulting everyone that is responding to you (HUGE props to Harvey, by the way, truly excellent posts in the face of aggression). If you have such a problem that you cannot conduct such a discussion without resorting to aggression and insults, maybe you're the one with the problem and maybe you should consider getting therapy. It is good stuff, and maybe you'll become someone people will actually ENJOY debating with.

Could've been sent in a PM but instead you decide to beat a dead horse. Nice work.
Why would I want to be debatable to someone who was universally hated by everyone who wasn't a mod a few years back? Get a fucking clue, nobody likes you.

It'd be cool if you could follow your own advice, seeing as that would silence you permanently. ;P

And yeah, stop being a dick, or get thrown out, etc.etc. You know the drill.

Stop being such a tool and put your money where your mouth is for once. Christ, no wonder this board is dead; all that remains is just the bitchy, pill taking sods who have no other place in life.
Title: Re: Go back to bed, your government is in control
Post by: Viherminttu on March 11, 2011, 01:55:59 pm
Nobody likes me? I think you have me confused with... well, you.

Grow up you stupid, arrogant puppy. You're a disrespectful, rude, aggressive pain-in-the-ass who seems to have nothing better to do with their time than pick fights with people on the internet.

Be nice to people, stop being a fuckwit and if you hate it here so much stop coming back.
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