Author Topic: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings  (Read 14161 times)

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Offline cloudstrifex

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2011, 12:59:46 am »
Very serious. Cost me thousands for the lawyers in court.

Can I ask why? o_O

Also, wishing for the death and torture of the individual who did this is not only barbaric and outdated, but will not help anything towards preventing something like this from happening again. People who do things like this need serious therapy, and are very obviously not right in the head for whatever reason. That doesn't give anyone the right to purge them from a defective society because they were not able to cope with reality. As evilcandybag said, we should all just love each other. That's not to excuse what he did, and this is incredibly tragic, but wishing for the death of another is never the right way. We as a society need to figure out how something like this could have happened and work together to make sure it doesn't happen again.

That being said, once emotions have settled in a few weeks people should not dwell on the past and move on with life. The lives lost will not be forgotten and the memories of them will live on through other people. This experience should be used to become stronger as a people and learn how to be a better society, at least that is my opinion. My condolences to anybody who lost a loved one, and of course to all the lives  that were taken.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 03:22:13 am by cloudstrifex »

Offline Einkoro

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2011, 05:07:49 am »
Can I ask why? o_O

You shouldn't cheat on people with depression and borderline personality disorder because things explode way out of proportion extremely easily and quickly. Mix that with an over zealous legal system where they pursue charges no one wants to press and some more for things so way out of context it doesn't even make sense. Long story short they charged me with assault and multiple threats of death or bodily harm and eventually dropped them all after wasting my money and tax payer money. Not to mention all the lost wages and relocation costs.


Back to the actual topic ... I don't think terrorist attacks against viking countries is a smart idea. Berserkers are scary fuckers when enraged.
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Offline Cestus

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2011, 11:52:05 am »
Chaos! Panic! Desaster! (my work here is done ~ for pony)

Offline Cerapter

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2011, 02:29:50 pm »
I'm impressed and in awe of the attitude of so many of my fellow Norwegians. We are all furious, but we will not led that cloud our judgment. We will deny his belief in violence and aggression. That infernal, absurd belief is what drove him to do this. Now, I do not think this mass murderer would have become a better being if Norwegian society had been more lovey-dovey; at present I can only believe that the drive to do this came from within him. But if we react to this nightmare by becoming better people and a better society, that is the worst punishment I can think of for his condition.

If instead we let him reach our dark sides, and smear his blood on our hands, that blood will taint and mar us, and he will have gained a small victory. With our own blood boiling in our veins, we might not have realized this until later. No, I'm glad the cold air is chilling our heads.
Just close your eyes and keep your mind wide open.

Offline Ziza

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2011, 12:42:57 am »
Ok, time for some necromancy!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/insane-breivik-should-not-be-sent-to-prison-say-prosecutors-6269761.html

More and more of those news are appearing.

Of course nothing is decided yet and I'm not telling it will turn out this way, but let us discuss.

So, this is the world we live in. The world of political correctness and 'human rights' where a simple statement that the individual is 'mentally insane' might be enough to deny him the punishment and instead try to somehow help him.

Well, isn't that sweet? I remember that once in our little lovely Poland some guy set his neighbours' apartment on fire. Not by accident, on purpose. A whole family, together with children, died in flames. Now, the guy only said that "the voices told him to do this". And what happened then? Psychiatrists' opinion and he was sent to be treated and released after about half a year (with specialists' opinion: CURED!)... to live in the same place, next to all the terrified neighbours. But who cares about neighbours, who cares about those dead people relatives.

We live in the world where constant brainwashing makes people actually believe that absurds like that are ok. That a crazy murderer shouldn't be punished or even completely removed from society like a non-crazy murderer would be.
Wait a minute... who would you rather live next to? A man who kills in self-defense (in many countries you still will easily be sentenced for many, many years for that) or while acting under strong emotion (say, catching their spouse in-act while cheating)... or, on the other hand, a man who murdered 70 children, believed till the very end that what he had done was right... but hey, it was then! He was insane and now he's cured! Our doctors say so.

What I believe is simple - insane people are even MORE dangerous. Why are we letting them go so easily then instead of protecting the society EVEN MORE from them? Or is it that 'human rights' apply only to criminals nowadays? At least that's the impression one might sometimes get...

Offline LymphoCite_T

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2011, 04:18:05 pm »
What I believe is simple - insane people are even MORE dangerous. Why are we letting them go so easily then instead of protecting the society EVEN MORE from them? Or is it that 'human rights' apply only to criminals nowadays? At least that's the impression one might sometimes get...
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous? is there even any statistic informing what percent of mentally ill people did try to do some murder or whatever? is it bigger than percent of mentally healthy ppl who do so?

I can agree up to a point, in case we reverse your thinking - we can say people who kill other people are somehow insane - antisocial. and thus: countries could decide that all of murderers should get prison sentece/death penalty. in this case there are just no palliations. fair enough.

But isolation of all mentally ill people is kinda weird. for example: you get depression. now they isolate you just because you can do harm to someone (e.g. you). you can't work, try to maintain family now. or anorexia. or catatonia. or any other mental illness.
Why do you think it is ok to punish ill people for things which are uninfluenced by them?
People with Alzheimer's disease are not aware of things they do, too.
Should we isolate them?

And... look, what an irony - soldiers who kill on purpose, but having bigger ideas behind them are considered heroes. Mentally ill people (remember only a tiny group of them has ever tried to kill anybody - not all of them are dangerous at all, even when having 'heavier' disorders) are considered the waste of society.

And notice that to improve safety of society, some ill ppl spend their whole lives in hospitals already...

I think the best idea is to punish these ill people who killed someone (if one has to) is like for unintentional causing of death. and one should cure them too, before letting them to be with society again.

---
The truth is that it's not so easy to distinguish whether one is really ill or just pretending.
But don't tell me we should do things like the ones you said. It would be collective responsibility.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 04:26:17 pm by LymphoCite_T »
:):):)

Offline yas‮

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2011, 04:26:04 pm »
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous?

Umm... if a guy kills someone or burns your house, and then he is declared insane or - if you want it subtle - mentally unstable, do you think he's automatically redeemed of his evil deeds and less dangerous?

That's basically what he meant.

Offline LymphoCite_T

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2011, 04:42:28 pm »
Wait, what? How can you calculate it in this way? How can you say insane people are more dangerous?

Umm... if a guy kills someone or burns your house, and then he is declared insane or - if you want it subtle - mentally unstable, do you think he's automatically redeemed of his evil deeds and less dangerous?

That's basically what he meant.

then why don't formulate it as equally dangerous?
i still can't see why insane people should be called more dangerous...
for simple thinking:
!(x < y) doesn't mean (x > y)
:):):)

Offline yas‮

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2011, 04:47:15 pm »
They are more dangerous simply because they are even less predictable. It's like you stand in front of a guy and his mentally unstable brother. You call both sons of bitches. Who is most likely going to kill you for that?

Offline LymphoCite_T

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2011, 05:31:24 pm »
They are more dangerous simply because they are even less predictable. It's like you stand in front of a guy and his mentally unstable brother. You call both sons of bitches. Who is most likely going to kill you for that?
Stereotype.
It depends. if the 'brother' is catatonic, it's thousand times more likely the 'guy' kills you.
It also depends on temperament, and some other things.
The truth is that sensitive people get mentally ill easier than others, chances are that he goes crazy enough to kill you, but in some diseases, like in most types of schizophrenia, which is mentioned in Ziza's post, people are less irritable, and more depressed.
There are many factors that decide if one (mentally ill or not) kills you.
I agree that these people are less predictable. But it doesn't still mean they're more likely to do bad.
You can tell children with ADHD are more dangerous. But in the most of illnesses you can't know whether one is more or less dangerous. I know guy that is schizo- and works as ambulance driver, and therefore saves people's lives. I can predict what you say now. something like that there are exceptions, but most of mentally ill people are still dangerous. What ''most"? As i asked - are there any statistical researches that prove more of mentally ill people are dangerous in any way?
If you give me a scientific or just a statistical proof that the 'brother' is more likely to kill, I agree with you they're more dangerous.

//terrorists deal with killing ppl, mentally ppl don't have to.
//and: have you ever met a classical example of a simple guy?
:):):)

Offline Ziza

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2011, 01:23:36 am »
Ok, Lympho, you got me wrong. I didn't mean that mentally ill people are more dangerous and should ALL be isolated.

I of course meant that mentally ill CRIMINALS are more dangerous and therefore should be treated more firmly instead of more gently.

I also did not mean all mental illnesses. I meant mental illnesses that were said to be the reason for them commiting crime - that's most usually why they don't give them as much of a punishment as other people would get and that's what I believe should lead us to reasoning that person should be treated as more dangerous instead.

So, I hope I've made my point now.

Quote
I think the best idea is to punish these ill people who killed someone (if one has to) is like for unintentional causing of death. and one should cure them too, before letting them to be with society again.

That's what I'm referring to and that's what I can't agree with. Even though I am definitely aware that there are many cases of people who actually GOT cured, I believe it to be really risky in case of many insane people charged with heavy crimes, not to even mention the fact that punishing them for unintentional causing of death is exactly what I was criticizing. I know I am going to extremes now, but honestly I don't think you believe people like Breivik should be punished as if the crime was 'unintentional'.

Another one of 'extreme' examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

tl;dr - guy killed and ate a woman, his father managed to get him to a hospital for mentally ill instead of prison. Guy got out after 15 months and is now rich and famous thanks to the public interest in his crime.

Offline LymphoCite_T

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2011, 12:12:47 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

"Upon arrival in Japan, he was immediately taken to Matsuzawa hospital, where examining psychologists all found him to be sane but "evil"."

probably very big amount of criminals pretended to be insane just to avoid prison, and i think so did Breivik, fake paranoid schizophrenia is the easiest to persuade.
"Among other things, he alluded to himself as a future regent of Norway pending a takeover by a Templar-like organization." [wikipedia]
Cool story, Bre.

On the other side, his behavior is really irrational if he was Christian at all.
He didn't achieve anything but killing some kids.
"In it he lays out his worldview, which includes support for varying degrees of cultural conservatism, ultranationalism, right-wing populism, Islamophobia, Zionism, anti-feminism, and white nationalism."
He just shamed all right-wing related values with their fanatic versions... Yeah, the best way to make the psychologists think one is from Christian, right wing family, and got insane.

Of course i might be wrong. It is possible he was really ill.

In this case he should be not released unless he got cured and aware of what he did, and if he didn't pretend, he can't be cured for a very long time. So thinking as formalist: when he gets aware of murdering ppl and of it's wrong, he should go to jail for unintentional killing (but better idea is to let him spend this time in care). Of course if he ever gets cured, 'punished' and released, which is hardly possible, he should have compulsory psychiatric supervising till the very end of life.

:):):)

Offline Aeon

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2011, 09:20:26 pm »
See this is why I'm glad there are people who do the thinking for me and that I don't have to voice my opinion on any of that.

I have no idea what it was, or is, on Breivik's mind, that made him to kill. I don't care about his claims. I am insane enough to know that lunatics' words matter little (yes, that includes my voice, so feel free to ignore that post, I wouldn't mind). And that we are able to freely twist and redefine, shift our perception of reality. So that one can believe, when commiting heinous crimes, that one is in fact doing good things, or at least not doing evil things. Or make it so that the meaning of insanity changes to suit our whim. Or fiddle with the definition of instability so that it can be attributed to other people, not to them.

We may be unpredictable. Lunatics and normal people alike. We will never get rid of evil, or fear, or death. Or of concern about things we believe are not right. Frankly, I care little about where Breivik ends up so long as he does not live in my neighborhood. Though despite my indifference, I'd rather he lived, and be allowed to walk among us.

Ziza, you know how it is. Some people (I'm not sure which kinds of people in particular, I know almost for sure psychopaths, and maybe some other sensitive people who are able to empathize with the others) just do not learn from being punished. So they need help instead. Or to be rewarded for doing good deeds. Just like children. We are not that different from our younger selves, besides a little bit of life experience and physical development. Do not be scared or frustrated. It may be that you learn better from being punished and from failing. That's pretty much what's considered normal, and stable. There is some kind of universal balance in the world, though. Lunatics suffer throughout their entire lives for no reason other than their brains being wired differently and working differently, and I'm not sure if any kind of psychological or psychiatric help is able to permamently remedy that, let alone any amounts of fame or money. Usually shunned and stigmatized by the society, these lepers among the healthy are doomed to their own minds.

So, in other words, he's a loon so let him go. Maybe. Or put him in prison. Whichever works better. I don't know, I'm no expert. No kind of punishment or reparations will fill a gaping hole left after the loss of a living being, though.

I don't even know what I'm writing anymore.
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Offline Ziza

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2011, 10:16:45 pm »
Ziza, you know how it is. Some people (I'm not sure which kinds of people in particular, I know almost for sure psychopaths, and maybe some other sensitive people who are able to empathize with the others) just do not learn from being punished.

Proper punishment isn't what I care about as much as protecting the society from discussed individuals effectively...

Offline Caranfin

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Re: Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2011, 02:34:35 am »
Why, in your opinion, is treatment not an effective way to protect the society from a severely mentally unbalanced individual?