Author Topic: well this is gaming sooo  (Read 21768 times)

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Offline Outlaw289

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2005, 03:06:57 am »
Hi.

Firstpost for me. Turin is right, case closed, next victim.

Offline Torp v2.0

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2005, 03:43:51 am »
Ok murder is worse than theft and heres why:

If someone takes something from you there is a chance that you will get it back or replace it.

If someone kills you you are dead. Forever.

Not really.. If someone tries to commit murder, there is a chance, you will defend yourself or somehow survive. A free capitalist society cannot function if theft is legal. Nor can it function if murder is legal. Both are equally immoral and should be equally illegalized. Which brings us back to the point of why we were argueing. Theft to save murder is immoral. And it isn't even murder!

Torp defined it as murder, if someone stands by while others starve because of their own decision of not working for money to buy food, or ect, he says that is murder.

 By his definition, he himself is commiting murder, while thousands of Africans starve daily, same with yourself. Do you really think this type of thinking is logical, and rational?

You forgot that I'm also a thief. I have clothes and shoes probably made by wage slaves in sweatshops in asia. These clothes are really comfortable, by the way.

And I wouldn't call it murder. It's more indirect. Accessory to murder, maybe, or "cause of death: Torps greediness", but not murder.


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Not true. The Constitution of the United States, was created as a beacon of freedom and defense of individual liberty. This was about 60 years before Marx even wrote his book. Look at the economy of the United States before the Civil War, it was pure laissez faire. Libertarian thought, has been around far longer then Socialism. Thomas Jefferson, or John Locke were known as one of the first libertarians of their time.

Well, but socially, it wasn't that great. There was a whole lot of people who had to work for nothing, slaving away 16 hours a day. And further south, there were the actual slaves, who in many cases actually lead a better life. I mean, you'll protect your property, but if there's two workers ready to take the job of a worker that dies from exhaustion, you don't really care about the workers.

And it's not surprising that the economy was good. Industrial Revolutions tend to created sudden economy booms. And slavery is really quite cheap labour.
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However what I will argue to the death is that nothing is more precious than human life. I'm an Intellectual Agnostic (as H P Lovecraft calls it) and I think that this is more than likely the only shot we have at this life so the worst thing to possibly do is rob someone if it. To say that there is any crime as heinous as that just doesn't make sense to me.

Crime is crime, no matter how much you hate one or the other.

Lovely. So all crimes are equal?

Hi.

Firstpost for me. Turin is right, case closed, next victim.

No he isn't. Case reopened, let's torture this victim to death.

Another little paradox. A central idea in libertarianism is that one is not allowed to force anyone into doing something. But, isn't imposing the rules of libertarianism on someone actually use of force?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 04:20:14 am by Torp »
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Offline L'homme magique

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2005, 03:48:20 am »
Hi.

Firstpost for me. Turin is right, case closed, next victim.
What a shitty first post.

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Socialism is socialism. A is A. Crime is crime. Disease is disease.
ONLY A SITH DEALS IN ABSOLUTES

YOU

SITH !!
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Offline Einkoro

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2005, 02:05:50 pm »
"Don't believe anyone when they tell you irony is just a literary convention. It's a universal constant, like the coefficient of gravity." - Alfred Bester

Offline Turin

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2005, 06:25:36 pm »
I've said what I've needed to say. I'm not going to continue to debate for you to twist my words. Torp can continue to live his life, and think that voluntary exchange = theft.

So, as a lesson, continue to believe in the fallacy of government. Put your trust in the hands of autocrats, and despots, that historically, murder, steal and enslave. And only then, freedom and happiness will never be aquired in society.

There are only two idealogues in politics. Those who command and control(Communists, Democrats, Republicans, Nazis, religious theocrats), and those who control their own lives and answer to none other then themselves. Ask yourself who is it better to be. Is it better to follow, then to actually think for your self?



I choose when to be generous.
I choose who to love.
I choose when to be greedy.
I choose when to work.
I choose what to do with my property, that I have justly aquired from mutual exchange.
I choose why to live.
I choose my activities to enjoy life.
I choose the paths in my life.
And I choose to allow others to do the same.

The government does not choose when I truly want to be generous.
The government does not choose who I love.
The government does not choose when I am allowed to be selfish.
The government does not choose when I work.
The government does not choose what I do with MY property, unless of course, you are to imply I have no right to property.
The government does not choose why I live.
The government does not choose my daily enjoyments.
The government does not choose my paths in my life..
The government does not have a right to anyone. Unless that right is voluntarily given, via mutual consent.

Why base a philosophy and a social and economic system on collectivism? The collective does not think. And if you imply it does, then you are saying that only the rulers think, because no society is truly egalitarian. Why not base it on the individual, the true guiding light of civilization? The individual does think, as opposed to the collective, who rules and enslaves without the mutual consent of the individuals who give it sanction to govern.

Economic Freedom + Social Freedom = perfect. Undeniable.



_____

I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.
-H.L. Mencken.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom--go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!
-Samuel Adams

A government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.
-Ayn Rand

There can be no truly moral choice unless that choice is made in freedom
-Murray N. Rothbard
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 06:33:39 pm by Turin »

Offline Torp v2.0

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2005, 01:01:29 am »
Yeah. I basically believe in the fallacy of any government, even "non-gorvernment governments". Humankind is imperfect, and as such, we cannot create perfection. We can create utopias in our minds, but we can't move them out of there, because the utopias conflict with the utopias of other people. The only way to create an utopia for everybody is actually what you called Marx's way: To make everybody One. Because if everybody is One, One got the same idea of utopia.

The discussion isn't going anywhere constructive, so I agree, let's end it.

Well, now that the discussion is over, I have to say that the idea of Libertarianism has to be better than the execution of communism.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2005, 01:17:18 am by Torp »
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Offline Outboundlight

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2005, 02:55:00 am »
This is getting kind of crazy.

I think I'm gonna say a few more things though, followed by a disclaimer*.

You choose when to be generous. This choice could mean the difference between life or death for someone. Do you have the right to decide whether another person is entitled to the natural freedom of life?

The government does not have the right to force you to choose. What you do have is a moral responsibility to make the right choice.
Does this mean I'm opossed to socialism? Well, I guess it means I'm opossed to a socialist state as much as I am opossed to pretty much any state.

Socialism however opened peoples eyes to the sick joke that was "liberty" in the nineteenth century. They had no freedom. The had the freedom to choose between working a twelve hour day for shit-pickings or starving to death. Libertarian ideals failed those people when those ideals were taken to the extreme, just as socialist ideals would fail them when taken to the extreme in the next century.

Just as Locke's and Voltaire's ideals were perverted by the wealthy, so to were Marx's and Engel's by those who sought political power.
It is the libertarians I agree with, even in some cases the anarchists, but it is not enough to strive for, and if we get it, protect our own freedom.
Anarchists believe that in a social climate where no power exists, then people would help each other without pressure from any government. This is a libertarian ideal taken to the extreme, but who do we have to thank for this original vision? Karl Marx. The father of socialism.

Looking out for ourselves can only get us so far. look where its gotten us now. All this talk of property? Property comes and goes but life is life. You say what is life without property and what if I agreed? What if I said that since life is nothing without property then you should make it a priority to ensure that those without property (money clothes etc) have some? Since without it their life is nothing. If life is nothing without property it is your responsibility to share it, otherwise you are denying these people the freedom of life.


Once every single human being on the planet has enough of whatever they need, then you have every right to decide when to be generous and when not to be. Whenever no ones life depends on it.
Indeed, when everyone has enough, "when we are victorious on a global scale we shall use gold for the purpose of building public lavatories." - Vladimir Lenin.

*Disclaimer: I don't really believe in much of this crap and I reserve the right to contradict myself, make stuff up and generally go crazy. I respect the beliefs of people such as Turin and Torp who can argue their points intelligently and I believe that people like outlaw should be anally penetrated by the mutated penis of a serial dog rapist. I fully enjoy these poltical debates and hold no grudges against anyone who participates in them

Offline L'homme magique

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2005, 03:14:12 am »
HEY GUYS LET'S TALK ABOUT GAMES
"It's like growing up reading good books or listening to good music. One good sofa breeds another good sofa; one bad sofa breeds another bad sofa. That's how it goes."

Offline Torp v2.0

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2005, 09:40:06 am »
Yeah. Just don't mention Americas Army. Ever again.

Unless you want a political debate, that is. I can't say I didn't enjoy it. I love a good debate, whether I believe in the viewpoint I'm professing or not*.


*in this case, I more or less did. I don't expect anyone else to hold them, though, as they're slightly more fatalistic** than what's good for a human being. I believe I'm being realistic, but if everybody thought my way, we would never get anywhere.

**I don't exactly believe that things won't work, just that it's improbable they will. But still, if as much as 99% of all effort to improve fail, there's still 1% that makes the world a better place (of course, knowing how effort to improve is often corrupted, 5% of that effort will probably go towards making the world a worse place)
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<Radicz0r> Torp is well prepared for universal destruction

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[03:18:51] <WereVolvo> not arctic

Smeagol

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2005, 11:44:40 am »
I'm amazed that a thread on America's Army game has gotten so far without someone coming up with



A CAD strip yet.

Offline Torp v2.0

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2005, 12:02:50 pm »
Well, the discussion wasn't about AA, AA just happened to be the spark.
...why Torp was picked over you... HE'S JUST BETTER THAN YOU IN EVERY RESPECT. -SomethingGood
<Radicz0r> Torp is well prepared for universal destruction

[03:18:49] <WereVolvo> ARCTIC
[03:18:51] <WereVolvo> not arctic

Smeagol

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2005, 12:06:41 pm »
anyone here play Americas Army...?  :D

First post. Yeah it was ;)

Offline Bates

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2005, 05:30:38 pm »
* Bateman finishes the family bucket of popcorn and the soda that never made it to Magicman

But stopping a game for political reasons? It's just a f'ing game! It's not like you play as Hitler or Stalin raping people. With that attitude nobody would play any shooter with real parties.

Offline L'homme magique

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2005, 06:46:32 pm »
Quote
the soda that never made it to Magicman
:(
"It's like growing up reading good books or listening to good music. One good sofa breeds another good sofa; one bad sofa breeds another bad sofa. That's how it goes."

Offline Bates

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Re: well this is gaming sooo
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2005, 09:33:37 pm »
Yeah, sorry. Got caught up reading all those long posts.